Right Turn on Red (5 Second Rule?)

[CourtClerk]

The following is from the Government Code:

Government Code
26500. The district attorney is the public prosecutor, except as otherwise provided by law.
The public prosecutor shall attend the courts, and within his or her discretion shall initiate and conduct on behalf of the people all prosecutions for public offenses. ​

The DA is the public prosecutor. He has the right to delegate the prosuctorial tasks to ADAs, DDAs, and City Attornys. However, he is still responsible for prosecutions, hence, he is responsible for discovery.

And in my county.... where I work, and have worked for several years in traffic, what you will get is a form letter, not even personally signed by anyone with the address and phone number to the City Attorney's office. Waste your time if you want to, but when it's someone else's ticket, you may want to do what's most expedient. I know, you're an expert.

 

[Hey There]

Getting Started

12-22-07

SamCA

Instructions on what to request and how to file for Discovery in CA. can be found on Google by typing in Discovery for Traffic Tickets.

Help!I Got A Ticket! has a form requesting Discovery from the D.A. as well as guiding you through court procedures relating to traffic tickets. An added bonus is that George McCalib will answer questions about your citation via his E:mail given on his website.

A book published by NOLO , which should be available at a library ,
gives extensive information on fighting a traffic ticket in CA.
This book has a form which can be copied and used to request Discovery from the citing agency( the police station where the offficer who cited you is employed.) and the D.A. or City Attorney.

Basically Discovery is an informal request for a COPY of the officer's notes, a COPY of the front and back of the ticket, a COPY OF THE VIDEO if one was made, and any other information the officer plans to use in court.( Step1.)The cited driver makes a written request for DISCOVERY( 2. )A friend hand delivers a COPY of the request OR mails it certified, return receipt, along with proof that the friend has done so (Proof of Service).
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The issuing agency is the police station where the officer who cited you is employed.
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As Court Clerk stated the correct agency (in some counties) is to send a Discovery request to the CITY ATTORNEY of the city where the officer is employed.
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Nothing prevents you from sending a request to all three.
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CA. Penal Code 1054.1
The prosecuting attorney shall disclose to the defendant or his or her attorney all of the following materials and information, if it is in the possession of the prosecuting attorney OR if the prosecuting attorney KNOWS it to be in the possession of the investigating agencies:
(Capitials mine)
(a) The names and addresses of persons the prosecutor intends to call as witnesses at trial.

(b) Statements of all defendants.

(c) All relevant real evidence seized or obtained as a part of the investigation of the offenses charged.

(d) The existence of a felony conviction of any material witness whose credibility is likely to be critical to the outcome of the trial.

(e) Any exculpatory evidence.

(f) Relevant written or recorded statements of witnesses or reports of the statements of witnesses whom the prosecutor intends to call at the trial, including any reports or statements of experts made in conjunction with the case, including the results of physical or mental examinations, scientific tests, experiments, or comparisons which the prosecutor intends to offer in evidence at the trial.

Best Regards,
Hey There

 

[justalayman]

[JIMinCA;1796012]

1054.1. The prosecuting attorney shall disclose to the defendant or his or her attorney all of the following materials and information, if it is in the possession of the prosecuting attorney or if the prosecuting attorney knows it to be in the possession of the investigating agencies:​

so the DA says, I sent all I had and all I knew about. I could speculate all day as to what may be available but I am not required to do so. I am merely required to send what I have and what I actually know about per jiminca's info. Prove me derelict if you can.

The prosecution knows that the cop has notes, there are speed surveys, there are calibration/maintenance records, etc. Therefore, he has to provide them whether he is actually in possession of them or not.

My understanding is a general request is not very productive. The request needs to be as specific as possible.

Well, in your county I would submit that your DA simply has chosen not to prosecute any case where he is asked to provide discovery. That is pretty simple.

but you insisted the da is the place to go. Carl is in Cali and deals with this (I am sure all too much in his book, but it is his job) so I would really listen to what he has to tell the OP.​

 

[JIMinCA]

And in my county.... where I work, and have worked for several years in traffic, what you will get is a form letter, not even personally signed by anyone with the address and phone number to the City Attorney's office. Waste your time if you want to, but when it's someone else's ticket, you may want to do what's most expedient. I know, you're an expert.

Wow... you are grouchy.

Who would I get the form letter from in your county??? The DA's office??? The DA's office can certainly forward the request to the city attorney. However, the burden is still on the prosecution to provide the discovery.

The discovery request is not just for the purpose of being expedient. It is for the purpose of being correct and requiring the prosecutor to follow the rules the State mandates.

 

[JIMinCA]

so the DA says, I sent all I had and all I knew about. I could speculate all day as to what may be available but I am not required to do so. I am merely required to send what I have and what I actually know about per jiminca's info. Prove me derelict if you can.

First of all, it is not my info. It is the California Penal Code. Second, I want to be the defendant when the prosecutor says that he couldn't send the officer's notes because he didn't specificly know any existed!!! That would be too much fun.

My understanding is a general request is not very productive. The request needs to be as specific as possible.

I didn't say make it "general". I have always referenced the website www.helpigotaticket.com for preparing a discovery request. It is an excellent source for how to to it properly.

but you insisted the da is the place to go. Carl is in Cali and deals with this (I am sure all too much in his book, but it is his job) so I would really listen to what he has to tell the OP.

Carl is a smart guy, but he has a "law enforcement bias". Just because he is a cop, doesn't make him the final say. As a matter of fact, some of the people I have seen in court with the worst understanding of the law are cops.

I agree with most of the things Carl discusses and also agree that he is a very smart guy. He and I just disagree on where to file discovery. The process I have discussed is not just theory. I have used it and helped others use it successfully in a half dozen cases in three different counties. It's hard to argue with success.

 

[justalayman]

Carl is a smart guy, but he has a "law enforcement bias".

actually, he is the least biased cop I have ever known. I have seen him recommend reporting a cop when a defendant has been wronged when it would be just as easy to placate them with BS.

Just because he is a cop, doesn't make him the final say. As a matter of fact, some of the people I have seen in court with the worst understanding of the law are cops.

Apparently you have never been in court with Carl. He is better educated than the typical cop. We have been in some fairly deep discussions and he has been able to support his position with case law and statutes as well as most attorneys would.

I agree with most of the things Carl discusses and also agree that he is a very smart guy. He and I just disagree on where to file discovery.

Hey, that's ok, after all, you are an engineer and he is merely a cop that has ben dealing with such things for a year or two.

The process I have discussed is not just theory. I have used it and helped others use it successfully in a half dozen cases in three different counties. It's hard to argue with success.

it is also hard to argue with unsubstantiated claims as well.

 

[JIMinCA]

Carl and I have had several exchanges on this site. While we have disagreed, I don't recall any bitter exchanges. You seem much more defensive of him than he ever has been. Makes me wonder what your real motivation is....

 

[justalayman]

my motivation?

I have none, just ask my wife.

 

[JIMinCA]

my motivation?

I have none, just ask my wife.

That's the first thing that you've said that I agree with.

 

[justalayman]

That's the first thing that you've said that I agree with.

You know my wife?

 

[JIMinCA]

You know my wife?

No, but I do sympathize with her.

 

[SamCA]

The main reason I want to file a discovery and get the officer's notes is to see if he mentions in his notes that I waited 3 seconds at the red light, instead of the 5 seconds he believes to be the law, before making the right turn. If he has anything about that in his notes then I should be able to have the case dismissed quickly. Maybe even at the arraignment. I'm not looking to draw the process out and win by technicality because the DA didn't respond or took to long to respond.

I have a feeling the officer put something about this in his notes because he really believed in his 5 second rule. He asked me when's the last time I'd been to driving school and if I remembered how long I had to wait at a red light before making a right turn. Very condescending.

What's the chances of me getting the judge to order the officer to re-take a Rules or the Road course? That'd be sweet!

 

[CdwJava]

The main reason I want to file a discovery and get the officer's notes is to see if he mentions in his notes that I waited 3 seconds at the red light, instead of the 5 seconds he believes to be the law, before making the right turn. If he has anything about that in his notes then I should be able to have the case dismissed quickly.

Very likely.

Maybe even at the arraignment.

Doubtful. The court is not going to hear your case at that time.

I have a feeling the officer put something about this in his notes because he really believed in his 5 second rule.

Hopefully. But, if he did not, he can always go in and say you misunderstood him because what he told you was that you SHOULD wait for 5 seconds ... that's just a possibility.

I have heard people opine about waiting five seconds, but I have yet to see an officer actually buy into that. But, I suppose anything is possible. heck, I still have an uphill fight reminding MY officers that marijuana pipes are not contraband for adults! And for a minor, they are contraband because they are "tobacco" paraphernalia, not drug paraphernalia.

What's the chances of me getting the judge to order the officer to re-take a Rules or the Road course?

Nil. The judge has no authority to do that. The MOST he could do is let the agency know that this officer needs to review the statutes he enforces. But, trust me, if he has any peers in the room, they will crucify him if he actually takes the 5 second rule position on the stand.

- carl