San Francisco Transit Killing Bart Station New Years

[HiFi]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

Just curious what your opinion would be if you were on the Jury and you accepted the Transit Policeman's statement that he thought he was shooting his taser gun and didn't realize he had pulled out his real gun when he started shooting an unarmed man who was on the ground and not attacking him. Would you still consider him guilty of murder or manslaughter whatever he is being charged with or would you consider him not guilty and just saying it was an accidental killing.

At first when I heard what the Transit cop said about thinking he was shooting from his Taser, I thought you've got to be kidding but when I thought about it I can see it happening as its the only thing that makes sense. I'm sure that most of us at one time or another absentmindedly have done something stupid- I.e. one day I put on 2 different pair of shoes and I once forgot my ATM pin number that I had used for 10 years. There simply is no reason he would shoot an unarmed man in front of plenty of witnesses for no reason. Let's say you believe his statement. Is that enough for you to consider him not guilty of murder or manslaughter charges?

 

[CdwJava]

Just curious what your opinion would be if you were on the Jury and you accepted the Transit Policeman's statement that he thought he was shooting his taser gun and didn't realize he had pulled out his real gun when he started shooting an unarmed man who was on the ground and not attacking him. Would you still consider him guilty of murder or manslaughter whatever he is being charged with or would you consider him not guilty and just saying it was an accidental killing.

He is being charged with murder. The elements of that offense are much harder to prove than involuntary manslaughter. if the state cannot meet its burden of proof, I would have to vote "not guilty".

- Carl

 

[HiFi]

You're a Little Above Me On This

We all know the guy shot and killed the unarmed man. Let's say that the State does not dispute the fact that the Transit Cop thought for no explainable reason that he thought he had pulled out his taser not a gun when he shot. Does that still constitute murder or excuse his criminal culpability? is there such thing as accidental killing for which you're not criminally answerable for? Is mistakenly shooting the wrong weapon which on the face of it makes no sense but is possible, a reason to decide not guilty? I apologize for not writing this any clearer but its hard for me to articulate this correctly.

 

[CdwJava]

It depends omn what the state can show. Proving murder implies a specific intent that is not likely to be made. I believe they charged this too high. An accidental killing due to negligence or pure stupidity would be best charged as manslaughter.

The defense appears to be doing the full court press for the preliminary hearing because the DA charged murder as opposed to manslaughter. If the state fails to meet the burden of proof to minimally sustain probable cause for murder, then the charges will have to be dismissed. The DA shot too high and the former officer may get off scot free as a result ... though he'll likely be sued into oblivion along with the BART PD by the family of the deceased.

- Carl

 

[cbg]

Carl, what I know about criminal law can fit in a thimble and still rattle, so forgive me if this is a stupid question; can the charges be amended downwards to something more appropriate?

 

[CdwJava]

Carl, what I know about criminal law can fit in a thimble and still rattle, so forgive me if this is a stupid question; can the charges be amended downwards to something more appropriate?

Yes, the DA can amend the charges downward, but not just now. He would have to dismiss and re-file if I have it correct. They are in prelim for murder, he would have to start over again with a lesser offense to try again later. I am not sure of the ins and outs, but I believe that they can leave the option open somehow for a jury to convict on a lesser offense so there may well be some way for the state to include the lesser offense of manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter to increase the chance that a jury might convict. However, I do not know how this works.

- Carl

 

[HiFi]

So Your Saying if a Charge Is Dropped You Can't Get Retried but Can On A Lower Charge

This is pretty interesting for me even though it wasn't what I originally was thinking about. Carl or anyone else, to reiterate your saying a DA can drop a charge against someone for which they can never be charged again like say Murder but they can charge a person for a lesser crime for the same deed if they drop the higher charge. Is that correct? Isn't that double jeopardy or does one have to actually go to court on a charge to be charged again for the same crime?

 

[CdwJava]

This is pretty interesting for me even though it wasn't what I originally was thinking about. Carl or anyone else, to reiterate your saying a DA can drop a charge against someone for which they can never be charged again like say Murder but they can charge a person for a lesser crime for the same deed if they drop the higher charge. Is that correct? Isn't that double jeopardy or does one have to actually go to court on a charge to be charged again for the same crime?

No. If a charge is to be dropped, or charges are to be added, it has to be before trial. If they lose on the murder charge, they cannot come back and hit him with manslaughter. But, they CAN seek to offer manslaughter as an option as a lesser included offense so that a jury might find them guilty of something if murder is not a likely end result. I do not know the mechanics of this as I am not involved in this portion of the process, but I have seen lesser charges added before trial.

- Carl