School bus moving violation

[Zurvan]

What is the name of your state? Pennsylvania

Hey folks, I have a major problem I need advice on. My roomate is finishing up her undergraduate degree at Penn State University and is student teaching for the local middle school. The other day she was cited for making a right turn while a school bus was parked on the other side of the street. The police informed her the bus driver called in the complaint and they are going to suspend her license for 60 days. I am unsure of the technicalities in this case, but I do know this was her first traffic violation and she has no points on her license. She also was unaware that she was unable to turn while a bus was parked on the opposite side of the street. To me a 60 day suspension of license for a first offense violation does not seem right. To make things worse if she gets her license suspended she will no longer be able to student teach and unable to graduate college. If there is any advice you could give to prolong this or get around this it would be much appreciated. Thank you very much.

 

[Zurvan]

update

I drew a layout of how she described the incident

http://www.personal.psu.edu/mjj155/traffic.JPG

My roomate stopped her car at the stop sign. The bus was stopped on the side of the street to let kids out. She waited at the stop sign for all the kids the cross but apparently didn't wait until the bus turned off the flashing red lights. When the bus driver reported the incident she included in her report that my roomate had stopped at the sign and let all the kids cross but turned right before the bus turned off the flashing red lights. I am not sure if any of this is relevant but thought it would be best to include it.

 

[justalayman]

if the lights were still on, she is guilty. no doubts about it.

How was she to know there was not an errant straggler yet to leave the bus. That is why a driver is required to wait until the lights are extinguished.

She also was unaware that she was unable to turn while a bus was parked on the opposite side of the street

Well, once she made the turn, she was on the same street as the bus. Did she believe she had legal rights to drive past the bus when she was on the same street? If you say yes or maybe, she needs to go an get the drivers manual for her state and relearn what she should already know.

To me a 60 day suspension of license for a first offense violation does not seem right

to me, running over a kid because of her ignorance of the law doesn;t seem fair either but it still happens.

To make things worse if she gets her license suspended she will no longer be able to student teach and unable to graduate college.

Is she a drivers ed teacher? If not I cannot see how not having a license would prevent her from continuing student teaching. She has a thumb? Can she ask you for rides because she will not have a license? See where I am going with this??

Oh, and by the way, if the driver felt it was not a serious situation, the driver would not have reported it, yet, they did so I suggest the driver of the bus believed your room mate had in fact committed the violation she has since been charged with.

 

[Zurvan]

The bus was stopped AT a 4 way intersection in an area where the bus itself is not even visible until you come up to the stop sign (the roadway is covered in trees). I can't recall the exact distance required for traffic to stop before a school bus, but I am sure at this particular 4 way intersection neither the bus, nor the bus's lights/sign are visible until the actual stop sign at the 4 way intersection, which is literally 10-15 feet from the bus.

As for her student teaching she is required to have a vehicle to travel to and from the school. I will have to look into the details but this suspension very well could affect her ability to continute student teaching.

 

[The Occultist]

As for her student teaching she is required to have a vehicle to travel to and from the school. I will have to look into the details but this suspension very well could affect her ability to continute student teaching.

Ride from a friend. Bike. Bus. Taxi.

If your friend is really going to be responsible for teaching the youth of the world, then she sure as heck better be smart enough to figure out how to get around town.

 

[moburkes]

Ride from a friend. Bike. Bus. Taxi.

If your friend is really going to be responsible for teaching the youth of the world, then she sure as heck better be smart enough to figure out how to get around town.

I agree. To all of the above.

 

[Maestro64]

You never answered the question was the red lights flashing on the bus, did the bus have one of those crossing bar off the bumper and was it extended, and did the bus have a flashing stop sign extend on the drivers side of the bus, I can understand not seeing the front flashing lights depending on how the bus was positions and relative to her making a turn. But the other two things that most all PA school buses now are required to have are hard to miss. If those two things were not extend that means the lights were not flashing because when those two items close the lights stop flashing.

If the light were flashing then there is not much she can do, she violated Title 75 Chapter 33 subsection 3345

http://www.dot3.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter33.pdf

If you read this you will see the bus driver can file a complaint and the officer will issue the ticket, the bus driver has 48 hour to file the complaint. The fine is only $250 for this offense and there is no mention of license suspension, unless she had other violation on the license and this one kicks over the point limits.

Keep in mind if she feels the lights were not flashing and the cross bar and stop sign were not extended when she made the turn, the bus driver will be required to show up at the hearing since they were the only one who observed the violation.

 

[Zurvan]

Thank you very much for your reply maestro, you have been helpful. As for the flashing red lights I will have to clarify with her if she saw them or not. It does however state in the clause that

"The driver shall not proceed until the flashing red signal lights are no longer actuated. In no event
shall a driver of a vehicle resume motion of the vehicle until the school children who may have alighted
from the school bus have reached a place of safety."

The complaint recieved stated that the driver DID wait until all children reached a place of safety, and the complaint was the driver began motion before the bus resumed motion with no mention of red flashing lights. I cannot find anywhere that states the bus must resume motion before any drivers can resume motion.

I am also going to look into if the stop was a designated place for a school bus to stop as I fail to remember any time I have seen a school bus stop there. It seems like an unsafe intersection to stop.

As for the 60 day suspension, I cannot find anywhere that lists this as a penalty either. This mention was only from the officer handling the incident and perhaps she was just misinformed of the penalty? I know for a fact my roomate has no points on her license, and this type of violation is 5 points I believe, which does not warrant suspension, correct?

Again thank you so very much for your help, any additional information or suggestions are always appreciated.

 

[justalayman]

The bus was stopped AT a 4 way intersection in an area where the bus itself is not even visible until you come up to the stop sign (the roadway is covered in trees). I can't recall the exact distance required for traffic to stop before a school bus, but I am sure at this particular 4 way intersection neither the bus, nor the bus's lights/sign are visible until the actual stop sign at the 4 way intersection, which is literally 10-15 feet from the bus.

but I am sure (from your info) they are not ticketing her for not stopping within the prescribed distance. What got the drivers attention was the fact your friend decided when the children were safe rather than following the law and waiting until the bus lights are extinguished.

IF the lights were already turned off or IF the bus was actually parked (for which they do not turn on their red flashing lights), she can defend this. Before getting this far into this, you should really know if the lights were on or not. Without that little bitty bit of info, anything you get as advice is basically worthless.

PENNSYLVANIA_S SCHOOL BUS STOPPING LAW

When you meet or overtake a stopped school bus with red signal lights flashing and stop arm extended, you MUST STOP.

When you approach an intersection where a stopped bus with red signal lights flashing and stop arm extended, you MUST STOP.

You MUST STOP at least ten (10) feet away from the school bus.

You MUST WAIT until the red lights have stopped flashing and the stop arm has been withdrawn before moving.

DO NOT MOVE until all the children have reached a place of safety.

You MUST STOP on roadways with painted lines.

You MUST STOP on roadways with singing divisors.(i.e. parts of Route 263, York Road)

Drivers on separate roadways do not have to stop on a highway with clearly defined dividing sections or physical barriers separating the roadways. This only applies when the school bus is on the opposite side of the road. WHEN IN DOUBT, STOP.

PENALTIES

· If you are convicted of violating Pennsylvania_s School Bus Stopping Law, you will receive all the following penalties:

1. 60-day Driver_s License Suspension

2. Five (5) points on your driving record

3. $100.00 fine

so, based upon that info, I would suggest that PA has made the stop arm that protrudes from the side of the bus mandatory equipment. She surely would have seen this had she been looking at the bus.

 

[moburkes]

Sh!t, 5 points. I'd be concerned about the insurance increase.

 

[Maestro64]

I also found what justalayman posted, here is the link

http://www.dot10.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-pub97.pdf

and here is a write up about these "School Bus Laws" which applies to more then just car drivers,

http://www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=445294

Now what I really find interesting about this "law" is this, nowhere does it say what part of the PA statutes and codes does it belong too and if you search this site which has all PA statues and code it does not show up.

http://www.pacode.com

The only place where it does show up is on PennDOT website. It appears the DOT wrote this law, which is by the way may not be valid in PA, there have been other instances where PennDOT attempted to put out legal code and it was struck down since only the legislators can create laws.

Look at her ticket and see what statute they are claiming she broke, if is was the one above it should look like this 75 Pa.C.S 3345 (a)

On your question about a valid location of the stop, PA has a rule on that too and it can be found here

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter104/s104.3.html

But, even if it was not a valid stop, I would not attempt to argue that point.

If I was you I would track down the law they claim you broke, I am coming up with nothing, without the law, it is hard to say if what she did was valid. It may over ride what I already gave you.

If you have questions about how the bus equipment is suppose to work here is the PA Statute on that

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter171/s171.59.html

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter171/s171.74a.html

http://www.dot3.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter45.pdf See section 4552

If her license does get suspended over this she need to look at this so she can drive herself to work.

http://www.dot10.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-15.pdf

 

[Maestro64]

Ok I found this on the points,

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/pub472.pdf

Yes it is 3345(a) and 5 point and 60 day suspension, Ouch that one hurts and definitely an insurance rate killer... I would seriously consider fighting this... PA has classified this offense as serious as DUI I do not disagree with that.

The reason the other stuff was only on PennDOT website it was about the points and they can assign points and suspend licenses, The thing that throw me off was the $100 fine because the statutes states it must be $250 and that was amend in 2002.

 

[Zurvan]

Thanks again Maestro for all your help

As for the Occupational Limited License I read this

"If you are currently, or about to be suspended for any of these violations, you are not eligible for an OLL:
3345 - Passing a school bus"

Which I guess takes away that option for her.

She has yet to get the actual ticket in the mail but it should come in within the next few days.

I also found out she wasn't even knowledgable about all the rules having to do with busing as driver's ed was not required in the highschool she graduated from (Berwicke Area Highschool, PA 2002) - which in itself is disturbing. Maybe the state should spend a little less time ticketing and put a little more time into putting driver's education into schools.

As for how to fight the charge, I wouldn't really know where to begin. I'm no law maker but it would seem to me like a small fine and requiring her take a driver's education course would be a much more practical solution rather then inhibit her graduation.

 

[Maestro64]

Glad the information was helpful, and you should read her the riot act over this one.

Personally, as a person who has kids who ride a bus, I am glad to see the law so tough, I am just surprise a person with a DUI suspension can still get OLL. She is being treated worse than a someone with DUI, children's lives are more precious.

As you know PA does not have any driver schools to reduce a fine so that is not an option for her, and I can tell most high school driver ed programs do not teach all the rules of the road, which they probably should to your point.

I am not sure she has too many options here, if all she needs to get throw is her student teaching you might be able to delay the suspension, she will have 10 days to send the ticket back and plead guilty or not guilty, if she pleads not guilty they will set up a court date between 30 and 60 days out. All and all she might be able to delay this into December after which it might not be an issue for her.

Just keep in mind, she might be expensive to marry, with those 5 points and suspension on her driving record (BTW that stays on the record for 7 yrs)

 

[Zigner]

Maybe the state should spend a little less time ticketing and put a little more time into putting driver's education into schools.

Or, maybe (and I know this is a radical thought), a person should become knowledgeable on the rules of the road on their own!