Supervised Visitation logistics... taking against orders

[Bloopy]

Hmmm, stalling

To ILOVEMYGSM3:
The girls’ actual daycare, his family member and I all have a copy of the court order, a calendar describing her exact days and times for pick-up and return, and a list of approved pick-ups. Approved pick up list or not, its not like we have no idea who this person is and why she could be wanting to pick up the children. It’s not like trying to stop a neighbor from pick up. Obviously, he does not her to pick them up and therefore she is not on the list, I just think the list is meaningless when it comes to the bio mother.

She moves very slowly however, so stalling till dad comes is a good idea. She lingers aimlessly at the girls’ regular daycare for an hour or more when does pick-up. Stalling should be easy for the daycare and his family- they are near enough his work. I’m far out but she just may be slow enough.

 

[critterperson]

You can let them go with their mother or be in trouble for kidnapping. It is NOT your right to dictate what a court order is nor decipher the legalese. Mom has more of a right to the kids than you ever will. By forbidding mom to pick up her children without a restraining order specifically prohibiting it, you could be arrested for intereference with parental rights and charged with a crime.

Sorry Ohiogal, In many states if the other parent shows up at a school, and if the school is aware of the custody arrangement they Can NOT and 99.9% Will NOT violate the court order, and just give the children to the other parent...This is what is called parental kidnapping, and it is against the law in every state...The other parent has the ability to petition the courts for more time... they can’t just show up and take days they are not granted through a court order...(with out the other parents consent...most schools and daycare facilities require a written permission slip from the CP) MY Goodness, could you imagine how many NCP's are out there that would take their children from school or the babysitter using your logic that they are the parent?...The schools and daycare facilities have no idea why the custody arrangement is the way it is...believe it or not pedophiles do have children and visitation is set up by the court for reasons.

I did read the statutes that you claim support your position...Participation at school and access to school records, is a totally different ballgame...If mom would like to show up and spend some time with the kids, fine...but as far as being able to show up and just take them...Sorry, but you are wrong...

I would be curious to see what crime they could charge someone with for following a court order? How would the prosecuter present that to the judge...Your Honor, I would like you to arrest Mr. or Ms. So and So for following a lawfull order of this court...Thank you...

 

[critterperson]

You are a daycare provider. You really need to know the law:
Virginia
§ 20-124.6. Access to child's records.

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither parent, regardless of whether such parent has custody, shall be denied access to the academic, medical, hospital or other health records of that parent's minor child unless otherwise ordered by the court for good cause shown.

VA Code on Non-Custodial Parents' Access to Schools. The "In person" requirement of § 22.1-287 could be a hassle for non-custodial parents not living close by:

§ 22.1-279.5 Participation in certain school activities by noncustodial parent

Unless a court order has been issued to the contrary, the noncustodial parent of a student enrolled in a public school or day care center shall not be denied the opportunity to participate in any of the student's school or day care activities in which such participation is supported or encouraged by the policies of the school or day care center solely on the basis of such noncustodial status. For the purposes of this section, "school or day care activities" shall include, but shall not be limited to, lunch breaks, special in-school programs, parent-teacher conferences and meetings, and extracurricular activities. It is the responsibility of the custodial parent to provide the court order to the school or day care center.



If dad is allowed there without calling so is mom. If dad can drop in at any time so can mom. YOU CANNOT TREAT MOM AND DAD DIFFERENTLY PER THE LAW! Deny mom or try to have her arrested and watch yourself be arrested. END OF STORY. You would be breaking the law. If dad is allowed on your property when his child is there so is mom. YOu cannot restrict her. I dont care that you are friends with dad. You are a daycare provider. And LDIJ this law speaks on the basis of noncustodial status. A COURT ORDER MUST BE ISSUED STATING SPECIFICALLY THAT MOM IS NOT ALLOWED AT DAYCARE WHEN HER CHILDREN ARE THERE.
Oh and the daycare operator does not have standing to get such an order -- it would have to be family court that would issue it.[/QUOT

Yes, mom can visit, but she can't show up to take the child

 

[critterperson]

Yup.

Remember that my ex had sole legal/physical and I had very specific 'custodial periods' in our original order. And when I took them from the school early on their field day - after they were dismissed by their teachers - and drove them to their father's house, he threatened to use that against me in court (for taking them out of school early on his day)... and I was advised by a majority of the people on this board that regardless of what the order said, unless I was actually interfering with his time, I didn't have anything to worry about, and neither did the school - no one had done anything wrong.

And, we routinely advise CPs that the school/daycare provider cannot and should not step in to enforce orders even when they ARE specific in keeping a parent from picking up the children.

Did dad ever take you to court? I am guessing no...

 

[triviafreakdad]

You are a daycare provider. You really need to know the law:
Virginia
§ 20-124.6. Access to child's records.

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither parent, regardless of whether such parent has custody, shall be denied access to the academic, medical, hospital or other health records of that parent's minor child unless otherwise ordered by the court for good cause shown.

VA Code on Non-Custodial Parents' Access to Schools. The "In person" requirement of § 22.1-287 could be a hassle for non-custodial parents not living close by:

§ 22.1-279.5 Participation in certain school activities by noncustodial parent

Unless a court order has been issued to the contrary, the noncustodial parent of a student enrolled in a public school or day care center shall not be denied the opportunity to participate in any of the student's school or day care activities in which such participation is supported or encouraged by the policies of the school or day care center solely on the basis of such noncustodial status. For the purposes of this section, "school or day care activities" shall include, but shall not be limited to, lunch breaks, special in-school programs, parent-teacher conferences and meetings, and extracurricular activities. It is the responsibility of the custodial parent to provide the court order to the school or day care center.

Does this law also apply to private babysitters ?

 

[Ohiogal]

actually most "daycares" and preschools have a sheet which state who IS AND IS NOT allowed to pick up children...if she is not listed as a pick up, (and if the father addressed this with a judge and daycare provider)then, mom is in the wrong..

WRONG! The parents ALWAYS have the right unless there is a restraining or court order against them prohibiting it to pick up their children. END OF STORY. A parents' rights trump that little sheet.

.i am on the list to pick up my bro and sis, but their dad is not...from another state, he attempted to "rectify" this, and the judge in his state and in my moms both said since he had VISITATION, that meant he had to schedule IN ADVANCE when he would be picking them up, not just go get them whenever he felt like it....


And apparently there is a court order prohibiting otherwise. But a legal stranger is NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO PROHIBIT A PARENT from picking up their child.

.also, if dad has primary custody, and she has visitation, wouldnt it be considered kidnapping in some state for her to just take the children from the provider, without the father knowing and approving of this?

Nope. It would be considered contempt of court however and if she did not return the child to dad it could develop into kidnapping.

also, if a school or provider knows the person who is attempting to pick up the children is NOT listed, then it is their duty to inform the other parent, and ask that the parent come to assist in rectifying the situation.....


Wrong. They cannot prohibit a parent from picking up the child. They can inform the other parent and go from there. But they are not legally allowed to interfere with a parent's rights.

op-i agree with what you did...if i knew the story the way you do, then i would assume that if he KNEW she was coming to get them, he'd have told YOU IT WAS OK...since she didnt tell anyone, it almost sounds like mom had ulterior/alterior(i can say but not spell it) motives, and that she may in fact have had the intention to run...

And if that had happened to one of my clients, daycare operator would have had charges against her for interference with parental rights and she would have been arrested. Not to mention facing a civil suit.


fiances ex has his daughter...however i've told him at ANY time does she come to MY home to get their daughter(if he is not present), and she appears to be intoxicated(she does pills daily), that i would not allow her to take her, that i would alert the police and in the event i could not get ahold of him i'd call his mom(who shares his custody and visitation since he was military, and yes his papers say that) to come and assist me with the girl until he could arrive...i'll be damned if i know something isnt right, and if something bad were to happen, let it fall on my shoulders...and if it happened again, i'd do the same thing.....


And you could be arrested as well. You have NO RIGHT to interfere with a parent's rights to their child> NONE.

btw-i just scrolled up and realized Ldj addressed the same issue i did to the extent of releasing children...so i apoligize for doing it again...

And she was wrong as are you. According to the law. Of course if you don't want to follow the law you can be arrested and spend time in a lawsuit.

 

[Ohiogal]

Does this law also apply to private babysitters ?

A babysitter is a legal stranger. A LEGAL STRANGER does NOT have paramount rights to a legal parent. A legal parent (unless there is a court order restraining them from picking up the child -- specifically stating they cannot pick up the child) has superior rights and any legal stranger can be arrested and charged with parental interference. End of story.

 

[CJane]

Did dad ever take you to court? I am guessing no...

Actually, we already had a custody trial pending. And yes, he brought it up in court. I testified that I had, in fact, taken the kids out of school 'early' (though they'd been dismissed) and taken them out for a snack and soda, and then dropped them off at his house around the same time the school bus would have.

Ex was throwing a fit - claiming that I'd 'stolen' time from him - even though he was at work for another 2 hours and not home anyway. He even asked the judge to not only admonish/sanction me, but grant him make-up time.

He was told by the judge that I have every right to take the kids from school for any reason I see fit, regardless of his status as legal custodian. He said that my lack of legal custody did not remove my right as a mother to make choices for my children in the absence of their father and he'd been denied no time at all since he wasn't home or expecting the children anyway. The ONLY way the school could deny my ability to take the kids is if there was a restraining order on file w/the school stating that I was not to have them AT ALL.

And yes, the school has copies of the custody papers, as well as a calendar that I prepare for them, outlining which parent the kids live with each day.

Due in part to ex's shenanigans wrt this incident, we now have joint-legal and I'm primary custodian.

 

[critterperson]

Actually, we already had a custody trial pending. And yes, he brought it up in court. I testified that I had, in fact, taken the kids out of school 'early' (though they'd been dismissed) and taken them out for a snack and soda, and then dropped them off at his house around the same time the school bus would have.

Ex was throwing a fit - claiming that I'd 'stolen' time from him - even though he was at work for another 2 hours and not home anyway. He even asked the judge to not only admonish/sanction me, but grant him make-up time.

He was told by the judge that I have every right to take the kids from school for any reason I see fit, regardless of his status as legal custodian. He said that my lack of legal custody did not remove my right as a mother to make choices for my children in the absence of their father and he'd been denied no time at all since he wasn't home or expecting the children anyway. The ONLY way the school could deny my ability to take the kids is if there was a restraining order on file w/the school stating that I was not to have them AT ALL.

And yes, the school has copies of the custody papers, as well as a calendar that I prepare for them, outlining which parent the kids live with each day.

Due in part to ex's shenanigans wrt this incident, we now have joint-legal and I'm primary custodian.

Sounds like dad had other problems as well if custody was changed

 

[LdiJ]

Actually, we already had a custody trial pending. And yes, he brought it up in court. I testified that I had, in fact, taken the kids out of school 'early' (though they'd been dismissed) and taken them out for a snack and soda, and then dropped them off at his house around the same time the school bus would have.

Ex was throwing a fit - claiming that I'd 'stolen' time from him - even though he was at work for another 2 hours and not home anyway. He even asked the judge to not only admonish/sanction me, but grant him make-up time.

He was told by the judge that I have every right to take the kids from school for any reason I see fit, regardless of his status as legal custodian. He said that my lack of legal custody did not remove my right as a mother to make choices for my children in the absence of their father and he'd been denied no time at all since he wasn't home or expecting the children anyway. The ONLY way the school could deny my ability to take the kids is if there was a restraining order on file w/the school stating that I was not to have them AT ALL.

And yes, the school has copies of the custody papers, as well as a calendar that I prepare for them, outlining which parent the kids live with each day.

Due in part to ex's shenanigans wrt this incident, we now have joint-legal and I'm primary custodian.

You also weren't a parent with very limited visitation rights either....you had defacto primary custody.....and a judge who actually asked who was the stupid judge who signed off on your original order...LOL.

 

[CJane]

Sounds like dad had other problems as well if custody was changed

The only reason custody was changed was due to Dad's consistent and continuing efforts to use his status as sole custodian to control me and the children on my time. His efforts to block my access to the children on his time, his efforts to keep me away from anywhere they were if it wasn't 'my day', etc. Pretty much what's going on here.

If there is no restraining order that BARS mom from the children, then a daycare worker or family friend cannot refuse to turn the children over. And frankly, if mom was half as dangerous as OP says she is, there WOULD be restraining orders. OP states only that mom is 'on the verge' of getting supervised visits - if she was dangerous, that would already be a fact, not an assumption that OP is making.

 

[CJane]

You also weren't a parent with very limited visitation rights either....you had defacto primary custody.....and a judge who actually asked who was the stupid judge who signed off on your original order...LOL.

Yes, but that doesn't change the application of the law. All we know is what OP is saying - all info that is at least 3rd hand... that mom is 'crazy' or 'bipolar' or 'slow' that she 'accidentally abuses' the children... but that there are no restraining orders, that there is no supervised visitation, and that there is no real and tangible reason mom couldn't take the kids from daycare... because there's no assumption that they'd be harmed.

OP even states that if the kids had been awake she would have let them go - so OP can't possibly think they're in any real danger.

I realize I have a different perspective on this, but it sounds to me like a power play on dad's part and not a danger issue wrt mom.

But still - without orders that specifically exclude mom from picking up the kids if dad's not around, the babysitter/family friend/whoever is better off releasing the kids and letting dad and mom duke it out in court than standing in the way of it (barring obvious danger to the kids, of course).

 

[LdiJ]

You know, my particular beef with the advice given on this thread was the assertation that the daycare provider would be arrested for not releasing the child to mom. That is absolutely not true and I think it was an irresponsible statement.

A statement like that has the potential for being directly responsible for a daycare provider allowing a parental kidnapping to take place, out of fear of arrest.

 

[stealth2]

Our school district's attorney told me that as long as the school has a copy of the custody/visitation order and that it specifies exactly when the NCP can have the kids - they will follow the order. W/O an order on file that fits the above, they cannot and will not interfere with his picking the kids up when he chooses to, although they would call me to let me know.

 

[CJane]

You know, my particular beef with the advice given on this thread was the assertation that the daycare provider would be arrested for not releasing the child to mom. That is absolutely not true and I think it was an irresponsible statement.

A statement like that has the potential for being directly responsible for a daycare provider allowing a parental kidnapping to take place, out of fear of arrest.

Yeah, I don't agree that the provider is likely to be arrested - but I do think it's a bad idea not to release the child.

I know that if daycare refused to release the kids to my ex, (he's not on the approved pick up list, btw - I was told parents don't have to be) he'd call the sheriff in a heart beat - but I don't think the deputy that responded would do anything at all except wait til I arrived to sort things out.