What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California (OC)
My ex has filed for 50/50 joint custody of our 8yo daughter. I have mediation in a few weeks. There are currently no court orders and no child support (I pay for school, insurance, etc... all of it). We were never married. Paternity established by signing a document at birth. Relationship ended 3/2011. Parenting time has been mostly with me but lately more 60/40 as he has a wife to help out. I had control of major decisions and scheduling, he got his parental time that fit his changing work schedules and didnt pay me. It worked ok for a while. (scroll down for more background)
My legal questions:
Is there a way to limit religious indoctrination by using disparagement/alienation even if no serious harm is yet realized? I know I cannot venture into the Establishment Clause area (thanks Wisconsin-Yoder 1972), but surely religious beliefs dehumanizing the other parent and causing guilt and anxiety in a child isn't ok just because it's from a religious belief.
He checked the boxes for joint agreement on everything except religious instruction and activities. If that box is checked (which is likely), what can I then object to?
My lawyer advised to just bring it up outright in mediation. She is non-religious as well and perhaps doesnt realize the culture of perceived persecution in this church. I don't want a religious war with an innocent child in the middle.
Can I just add some all-encompassing clause that includes something like "Child not allowed to join or attend groups, classes, or instruction by any group which discriminates, approves of, or advocates unequal treatment or status to any legally protected groups of persons, including, but not limited to, race, sexual preference, religious views, gender and gender identity, based solely on a person perceived to belong to such groups rather than on individual merit"?
or
"Child not allowed to join any church, religious community, or social group which teaches, holds as a statement of faith, or projects that the child can or will be separated from her biological mother at any point in the future, including belief in any future period after death, through any inferred or possible judgement or discretion of any supernatural force or deity". (* I wrote these myself so it may not fly at all or be what is legally needed. IANAL!)
So, he could go to any church he wants, as long as it doesnt disparage or alienate mother and daughter. Possible?
Any advice appreciated! There is surprisingly almost nothing on the internet about this type of situation.
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Further info, may not be legally relevant:
While we were together he was an agnostic/atheist. I have been atheist since High School. 2 years ago, he was "born again" and joined a non-denom ("new" Calvinist) Christian churches. At the time I had little concern. I am all for children being of religiously literate and exposing her to his beliefs seems a natural thing for a parent.
He started dating a woman (2014) which is now his new wife and, togerther, they are increasingly more intense in their faith. (or I am now becoming more aware)
My child was first told god is an all-powerful loving parent - normal stuff. Then, that mommy is a non believer but to pray for her - told her before I wanted to, but ok. Soon, she will learn that non-believers justly deserve eternal torture (but to still love and pray for them!). If she believes it, it seems reasonably guaranteed to harm the child and the parental relationship in a big way. Mommy goes away forever, a dark soul, condemned by the all-loving parent. She hardly needs to be told of the explicit connection. They've already taught her the idea that all humans are born unworthy depraved sinners who deserve death. (It's the only thing I outright told her wasn't AT ALL true!).
If a parent gives a child a bowl of yummy ice cream with poison spiders at the bottom, does it matter that she hasnt reached the bottom yet?
On which end of the abuse scale do we put a parent who threatens to burn his own children for not worshiping him?
My daughter says she doesnt really believe. She says she plays along. She could be just saying that to appease me- but I didnt bring it up and I do not disparage his views. She asked me to make it so she didnt have to attend church without hurting daddy's feelings. So I did. He responded that "she really loves church and was really looking forward to it". That "she has a light and joy in her devotion" and I wasnt considering her feelings. Daughter says if he asked her directly, she would lie, and go along. She will not tell him her true feelings. I don't want to either. It would likely make it worse.
So how do I protect her legally in the parenting agreement/judgement? From listening to her it seems she just wants me to "take care of it" and leave her out of it.
I could write a novel about what has gone on but let me just bullet some behaviors which are concerning.
- Found a pink sparkle bible they had sent with her to my home when she was 7 for her personal reading. Reading through, was shocked to find the plain language only made all the atrocities and mature content more easily understood for a child.
For example: "This is what the Lord says. I am bringing trouble to you from your own family. While you watch, I will take your wives from you. And I will give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it...I will do this so all the people of Israel can see it"
And this fun family story "The next day the older daughter said to the younger 'Last night I had sexual relations with my father. Let's get him drunk again tonight. Then you can have sexual relations with him too...So both of Lot's daughters because pregnant by their father".
I sent it back and said she needed something age appropriate. My ex agreed.
- gave 3 days in summer to new stepmom to spend "bonding". We had a nice lunch prior to the wedding and she agreed to no indoctrination. I found out when my daughter returned that stepmom had actually signed her up for Vacation Bible School- with dads approval. The permission slip, which is supposed to be signed by the legal parent, was the worst I have ever read. Here's a sample
- Notes sent to her in recent months have phrases like "Do not worry. You belong to Him. God, as your parent, will take care of you like the butterflies and flowers." And "Do not lean on your own understanding. Pray constantly"
- Found out very recently that not only was she going to 90min church service, but there are weekly groups, classes, daily prayer time, and nightly devotionals. It is constant. They insist this is not "indoctrination". We obviously have a disconnect on the definition of indoctrinating.
I believe children should find their own identity. I would prefer she develop her critical thinking skills, learn about the variety of religions, and make her own informed decision as a more mature individual. Then, she can change her mind a hundred times if she likes.
My ex has filed for 50/50 joint custody of our 8yo daughter. I have mediation in a few weeks. There are currently no court orders and no child support (I pay for school, insurance, etc... all of it). We were never married. Paternity established by signing a document at birth. Relationship ended 3/2011. Parenting time has been mostly with me but lately more 60/40 as he has a wife to help out. I had control of major decisions and scheduling, he got his parental time that fit his changing work schedules and didnt pay me. It worked ok for a while. (scroll down for more background)
My legal questions:
Is there a way to limit religious indoctrination by using disparagement/alienation even if no serious harm is yet realized? I know I cannot venture into the Establishment Clause area (thanks Wisconsin-Yoder 1972), but surely religious beliefs dehumanizing the other parent and causing guilt and anxiety in a child isn't ok just because it's from a religious belief.
He checked the boxes for joint agreement on everything except religious instruction and activities. If that box is checked (which is likely), what can I then object to?
My lawyer advised to just bring it up outright in mediation. She is non-religious as well and perhaps doesnt realize the culture of perceived persecution in this church. I don't want a religious war with an innocent child in the middle.
Can I just add some all-encompassing clause that includes something like "Child not allowed to join or attend groups, classes, or instruction by any group which discriminates, approves of, or advocates unequal treatment or status to any legally protected groups of persons, including, but not limited to, race, sexual preference, religious views, gender and gender identity, based solely on a person perceived to belong to such groups rather than on individual merit"?
or
"Child not allowed to join any church, religious community, or social group which teaches, holds as a statement of faith, or projects that the child can or will be separated from her biological mother at any point in the future, including belief in any future period after death, through any inferred or possible judgement or discretion of any supernatural force or deity". (* I wrote these myself so it may not fly at all or be what is legally needed. IANAL!)
So, he could go to any church he wants, as long as it doesnt disparage or alienate mother and daughter. Possible?
Any advice appreciated! There is surprisingly almost nothing on the internet about this type of situation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further info, may not be legally relevant:
While we were together he was an agnostic/atheist. I have been atheist since High School. 2 years ago, he was "born again" and joined a non-denom ("new" Calvinist) Christian churches. At the time I had little concern. I am all for children being of religiously literate and exposing her to his beliefs seems a natural thing for a parent.
He started dating a woman (2014) which is now his new wife and, togerther, they are increasingly more intense in their faith. (or I am now becoming more aware)
My child was first told god is an all-powerful loving parent - normal stuff. Then, that mommy is a non believer but to pray for her - told her before I wanted to, but ok. Soon, she will learn that non-believers justly deserve eternal torture (but to still love and pray for them!). If she believes it, it seems reasonably guaranteed to harm the child and the parental relationship in a big way. Mommy goes away forever, a dark soul, condemned by the all-loving parent. She hardly needs to be told of the explicit connection. They've already taught her the idea that all humans are born unworthy depraved sinners who deserve death. (It's the only thing I outright told her wasn't AT ALL true!).
If a parent gives a child a bowl of yummy ice cream with poison spiders at the bottom, does it matter that she hasnt reached the bottom yet?
On which end of the abuse scale do we put a parent who threatens to burn his own children for not worshiping him?
My daughter says she doesnt really believe. She says she plays along. She could be just saying that to appease me- but I didnt bring it up and I do not disparage his views. She asked me to make it so she didnt have to attend church without hurting daddy's feelings. So I did. He responded that "she really loves church and was really looking forward to it". That "she has a light and joy in her devotion" and I wasnt considering her feelings. Daughter says if he asked her directly, she would lie, and go along. She will not tell him her true feelings. I don't want to either. It would likely make it worse.
So how do I protect her legally in the parenting agreement/judgement? From listening to her it seems she just wants me to "take care of it" and leave her out of it.
I could write a novel about what has gone on but let me just bullet some behaviors which are concerning.
- Found a pink sparkle bible they had sent with her to my home when she was 7 for her personal reading. Reading through, was shocked to find the plain language only made all the atrocities and mature content more easily understood for a child.
For example: "This is what the Lord says. I am bringing trouble to you from your own family. While you watch, I will take your wives from you. And I will give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it...I will do this so all the people of Israel can see it"
And this fun family story "The next day the older daughter said to the younger 'Last night I had sexual relations with my father. Let's get him drunk again tonight. Then you can have sexual relations with him too...So both of Lot's daughters because pregnant by their father".
I sent it back and said she needed something age appropriate. My ex agreed.
- gave 3 days in summer to new stepmom to spend "bonding". We had a nice lunch prior to the wedding and she agreed to no indoctrination. I found out when my daughter returned that stepmom had actually signed her up for Vacation Bible School- with dads approval. The permission slip, which is supposed to be signed by the legal parent, was the worst I have ever read. Here's a sample
My daughter hesitated to tell me, initially trying to weave a story that would not get her in trouble. They told her not to tell me because I would be angry with her. I assured my daughter I was not the least bit angry with her, I hoped she had a fun time, and she could always tell me anything. Then I wrote a stern letter about keeping secrets and how it mirrored the tactics of abusers. This evidently made the new wife cry and the good relations with her were severed. They did it to "protect my feelings", so I'm the bad guy in this one.This release is intended to discharge Calvary Chapel against any and all liability arising out of or connected in any way with my child’s travel to, from, or participation in the activity, even though that liability may arise out of the negligence or carelessness on the part of Calvary Chapel. Should any claim be made or any lawsuit be filed against Calvary Chapel on account of any injury or damage to my child arising from any or related in any way related to my child’s travel to, from, or participation in the activity, I agree to defend, save, hold harmless, and to fully and completely indemnify Calvary Chapel for any and all amounts incurred, whether by settlement or judgment, including any amounts incurred by Calvary Chapel in defending against any such claim or judgment, including all attorney’s fees and costs incurred. Moreover.....
- Notes sent to her in recent months have phrases like "Do not worry. You belong to Him. God, as your parent, will take care of you like the butterflies and flowers." And "Do not lean on your own understanding. Pray constantly"
- Found out very recently that not only was she going to 90min church service, but there are weekly groups, classes, daily prayer time, and nightly devotionals. It is constant. They insist this is not "indoctrination". We obviously have a disconnect on the definition of indoctrinating.
I believe children should find their own identity. I would prefer she develop her critical thinking skills, learn about the variety of religions, and make her own informed decision as a more mature individual. Then, she can change her mind a hundred times if she likes.