Whiskey Barrel Head Stamps

[zddoodah]

If all the OP is doing is refurbishing the heads there is no issue.

Per the OP: "we we . . . take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp."

Simply slapping the label "refurbishing" on it doesn't impact the analysis. Perhaps the OP will clarify exactly what is happening because that's what's important.

 

[quincy]

I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts. ...

If all the OP is doing is refurbishing the heads there is no issue.

It is not that clear cut. Read through the information in the links I provided earlier, especially the Davidoff case.

There is no issue if permission is granted. But when you use someone else’s rights-protected logo/trademark and create something new, without authorization, you are likely infringing on the rights-holder’s rights.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

There is no issue if permission is granted. But when you use someone else’s rights-protected logo/trademark and create something new, without authorization, you are likely infringing on the rights-holder’s rights.

That's the point. The OP is not creating anything new. The OP is refurbishing an item. If this were illegal every body shop in the country would be shut down.

 

[quincy]

That's the point. The OP is not creating anything new. The OP is refurbishing an item. If this were illegal every body shop in the country would be shut down.

He is making and selling stuff using the whiskey barrels.

You didn’t read the information from the links provided earlier, did you? Please do.

 

[Taxing Matters]

It really is. People have been refurbishing, including trademarks, since not long after they started protecting trademarks. And I would love to see evidence that in a single case, it has been considered trademark infringement.

Just because lots of people have done it doesn't make legal. And the fact there is little appellate opinions on the matter (if that's the case) doesn't make it legal either. All that means is that there have been very few, if any cases on it, and that tells you nothing. I think zzddoodah got it right with this comment:

IF the stamp is a work of authorship, your removal of the existing stamp would destroy the copy. No problem with that. However, at that point you're essentially starting from scratch. There's no meaningful difference between the piece of wood (I assume) that used to have the stamp and a random, similarly shaped piece of wood that never had a stamp.

That's the point. The OP is not creating anything new. The OP is refurbishing an item. If this were illegal every body shop in the country would be shut down.

The OP is creating a new mark to replace the old mark. That's the part that is a problem. A body shop taking a manfacturers logo off one car and putting it on another is not the same situation, so that analogy does not work. Rather, the better analogy here is the body shop crafting a new trademark emblem for the car from scratch and putting that on the refurbished car. That would run into the same problem that zddoodah pointed out earlier.

 

[quincy]

There is plenty of case law to refer to. I provided earlier a link to an old forum thread that addresses many of the legal issues that are indicated as being present here, complete with several applicable case cites. That said, each case will present its own set of facts that need to be personally reviewed and analyzed and that is what will ultimately determine whether a use is infringing or not.

I think both doodah and Taxing might have misunderstood what skullcreekdesigns intends to do with the barrel heads - there are several possible examples online of products using whiskey barrel heads - but, regardless of what is made and sold, if a trademark/logo is used and permission has been granted from the rights holder to use it, there is no problem from an IP standpoint.

skullcreekdesigns can certainly find an IP attorney in his area to get a personal review but that can be costly where permission from the rights holder could be cost free.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Just because lots of people have done it doesn't make legal. And the fact there is little appellate opinions on the matter (if that's the case) doesn't make it legal either. All that means is that there have been very few, if any cases on it, and that tells you nothing. I think zzddoodah got it right with this comment:





The OP is creating a new mark to replace the old mark. That's the part that is a problem. A body shop taking a manfacturers logo off one car and putting it on another is not the same situation, so that analogy does not work. Rather, the better analogy here is the body shop crafting a new trademark emblem for the car from scratch and putting that on the refurbished car. That would run into the same problem that zddoodah pointed out earlier.

So the easy fix is not to ever remove the original logo. Just fix it.

 

[quincy]

So the easy fix is not to ever remove the original logo. Just fix it.

No. That’s not the easy fix. Using someone else’s trademark on a product you create, without authorization from the trademark holder, can be infringement.

You can use the whiskey barrel head with the trademark “as is” (e.g., for decoration) but as soon as you make something from the whiskey barrel head that has the original trademark, you are making a material difference in the original. And you potentially can be sued.

The trademark owner has not only rights in the mark but has a reputational interest in how their mark is presented to the public.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

No. That’s not the easy fix. Using someone else’s trademark on a product you create, without authorization from the trademark holder, can be infringement.

From what he wrote I don't believe he is creating his own product. He is refurbishing a product he has every right to sell.

 

[LdiJ]

From what he wrote I don't believe he is creating his own product. He is refurbishing a product he has every right to sell.

Refurbishing isn't what he said. He said: "I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts."

I agree that if someone buys whiskey barrels, refurbishes them and then resells the same whiskey barrels it is not infringement. That is selling a used product, refurbished, but selling a used product nonetheless. Again though, that isn't what he said.

 

[quincy]

I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts. I am curious if we were to take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp ourselves if that would be considered copyright infringement? It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.

I quote for a THIRD time what skullcreekdesigns said.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

And I'll quote him once.

It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.

If I refurbish an old Spitfire during the process I'm going to have to remove their trademarks from the car. If I then repaint those logos on the car I'm not infringing.

 

[Zigner]

And I'll quote him once.



If I refurbish an old Spitfire during the process I'm going to have to remove their trademarks from the car. If I then repaint those logos on the car I'm not infringing.

If you disassemble an old Spitfire, remove the logo from the hood, then convert the hood to a dining table, including reapplying the logo, then your analogy would be more correct.

 

[quincy]

You can do whatever you want to do with a whiskey barrel head that has no trademark or logo on it. As soon as you have a trademark or logo on the whiskey barrel head, however, it must remain a whiskey barrel head if you intend to market it.

Again, if you are creating a new product using someone else’s trademark or logo on it, you can be sued for infringement (or tarnishment).

skullcreekdesigns is going to seek out permission from the copyright/trademark holders. That is the smart thing to do to avoid all risks of a potentially costly lawsuit.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

If you disassemble an old Spitfire, remove the logo from the hood, then convert the hood to a dining table, including reapplying the logo, then your analogy would be more correct.

Nope not more but close to equal.