Supervised Visitation logistics... taking against orders

[Bloopy]

What is the name of your state? Virginia

My husband and I are concerned about a friend of ours.

He has Full Legal and Physical Custody of their children and she has visitation every other weekend. She has been ordered to follow though with therapy as a contingency but she still denies diagnosises and refuses to continue medication.

Supervised visitation was considered but since she has no family, the court thought it would not be feasible. What are supervised visitation options (Virginia). He doesn’t want things to be weird for the girls but things are pretty weird already.

Also, on my end of things, she showed up at my house to take the girls against visitation stating that. “I know he’s at work and they are here so I’ll take them off your hands. They belong with their mother.” Thankfully, their father was there but she hung around for two hours and wouldn’t leave. She asked the girls to ask Daddy if they could go with Mommy.

I’m not even a relative! What can I do when this non-custodial parent shows up to get her kids against visitation?

 

[Ohiogal]

You can let them go with their mother or be in trouble for kidnapping. It is NOT your right to dictate what a court order is nor decipher the legalese. Mom has more of a right to the kids than you ever will. By forbidding mom to pick up her children without a restraining order specifically prohibiting it, you could be arrested for intereference with parental rights and charged with a crime.

 

[LdiJ]

You can let them go with their mother or be in trouble for kidnapping. It is NOT your right to dictate what a court order is nor decipher the legalese. Mom has more of a right to the kids than you ever will. By forbidding mom to pick up her children without a restraining order specifically prohibiting it, you could be arrested for intereference with parental rights and charged with a crime.

I have to respectfully disagree with that response. Dad has full legal and physical custody and mom has a specific visitation schedule. I do not believe that a daycare provider would be required to release the children to mom when its not her time, in that instance....and I certainly don't think that a daycare provider could be arrested for refusing to release the child.

If they had some form of joint or shared custody it might be different, but they do not.

 

[Bloopy]

Trespassing?

I was thinking of approaching it form a trespassing angle. I told her it was inappropriate to come to my house without calling. She rang my doorbell for three minutes and I had considered calling the police. This is a very unstable woman who really loves her kids. We all feel genuinely sorry for her but are afraid of things she might do. In this case the girls were both asleep. Frankly, if they were to see her I'd be inclined to let them go rather than have them watch us argue of their mom get arrested. Then let the father file something with the magistrate. The problem is that when she gets a bad idea like coming over to get them she is manic and does accidentally abusive things.

My husband was furious given all the false allegations she has made and sent her an email threatening to call the police and filing for a restraining order. He was polite but very "legal"

She also sometimes follows us, the father and his family- with or without the girls. Creepy

 

[Ohiogal]

I have to respectfully disagree with that response. Dad has full legal and physical custody and mom has a specific visitation schedule. I do not believe that a daycare provider would be required to release the children to mom when its not her time, in that instance....and I certainly don't think that a daycare provider could be arrested for refusing to release the child.

If they had some form of joint or shared custody it might be different, but they do not.

Ldij you are wrong. A daycare provider is a legal stranger whereas a mother is not. It is NOT up to a daycare provider to decipher, translate or enforce a court order. And she can have charges pressed against her for parental interference. I just posted Virginia law which PROVES that you are wrong. There is no basis for you to say what you did -- mom's rights trump daycare regardless of noncustodial status.

 

[Ohiogal]

I was thinking of approaching it form a trespassing angle. I told her it was inappropriate to come to my house without calling.

WRONG! Do you require all your parents to call before they come get their kids? DO you require that of dad? Mom is entitled to the SAME access as dad.


She rang my doorbell for three minutes and I had considered calling the police.

And if you would have, mom could have had you arrested for denying her access to HER CHILD! you are no one in this situation. If you don't want the hassles of being a daycare operator then don't be a daycare operator.


This is a very unstable woman who really loves her kids. We all feel genuinely sorry for her but are afraid of things she might do. In this case the girls were both asleep. Frankly, if they were to see her I'd be inclined to let them go rather than have them watch us argue of their mom get arrested.


Mom wouldn't be arrested. YOU WOULD -- PER VIRGINIA LAW! KNOW IT! UNDERSTAND IT AND FOLLOW IT!

Then let the father file something with the magistrate. The problem is that when she gets a bad idea like coming over to get them she is manic and does accidentally abusive things.


It is not a bad idea for her to get them. The bad idea is you interfering with her getting them.


My husband was furious given all the false allegations she has made and sent her an email threatening to call the police and filing for a restraining order. He was polite but very "legal"

No he wasn't. You have an option -- quit watching the children and then you don't have to abide by that law.

She also sometimes follows us, the father and his family- with or without the girls. Creepy

You are a daycare provider. You really need to know the law:
Virginia
§ 20-124.6. Access to child's records.

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither parent, regardless of whether such parent has custody, shall be denied access to the academic, medical, hospital or other health records of that parent's minor child unless otherwise ordered by the court for good cause shown.

VA Code on Non-Custodial Parents' Access to Schools. The "In person" requirement of § 22.1-287 could be a hassle for non-custodial parents not living close by:

§ 22.1-279.5 Participation in certain school activities by noncustodial parent

Unless a court order has been issued to the contrary, the noncustodial parent of a student enrolled in a public school or day care center shall not be denied the opportunity to participate in any of the student's school or day care activities in which such participation is supported or encouraged by the policies of the school or day care center solely on the basis of such noncustodial status. For the purposes of this section, "school or day care activities" shall include, but shall not be limited to, lunch breaks, special in-school programs, parent-teacher conferences and meetings, and extracurricular activities. It is the responsibility of the custodial parent to provide the court order to the school or day care center.



If dad is allowed there without calling so is mom. If dad can drop in at any time so can mom. YOU CANNOT TREAT MOM AND DAD DIFFERENTLY PER THE LAW! Deny mom or try to have her arrested and watch yourself be arrested. END OF STORY. You would be breaking the law. If dad is allowed on your property when his child is there so is mom. YOu cannot restrict her. I dont care that you are friends with dad. You are a daycare provider. And LDIJ this law speaks on the basis of noncustodial status. A COURT ORDER MUST BE ISSUED STATING SPECIFICALLY THAT MOM IS NOT ALLOWED AT DAYCARE WHEN HER CHILDREN ARE THERE.
Oh and the daycare operator does not have standing to get such an order -- it would have to be family court that would issue it.

 

[CJane]

Ldij you are wrong. A daycare provider is a legal stranger whereas a mother is not. It is NOT up to a daycare provider to decipher, translate or enforce a court order. And she can have charges pressed against her for parental interference.

Yup.

Remember that my ex had sole legal/physical and I had very specific 'custodial periods' in our original order. And when I took them from the school early on their field day - after they were dismissed by their teachers - and drove them to their father's house, he threatened to use that against me in court (for taking them out of school early on his day)... and I was advised by a majority of the people on this board that regardless of what the order said, unless I was actually interfering with his time, I didn't have anything to worry about, and neither did the school - no one had done anything wrong.

And, we routinely advise CPs that the school/daycare provider cannot and should not step in to enforce orders even when they ARE specific in keeping a parent from picking up the children.

 

[LdiJ]

You are a daycare provider. You really need to know the law:
Virginia
§ 20-124.6. Access to child's records.

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither parent, regardless of whether such parent has custody, shall be denied access to the academic, medical, hospital or other health records of that parent's minor child unless otherwise ordered by the court for good cause shown.

VA Code on Non-Custodial Parents' Access to Schools. The "In person" requirement of § 22.1-287 could be a hassle for non-custodial parents not living close by:

§ 22.1-279.5 Participation in certain school activities by noncustodial parent

Unless a court order has been issued to the contrary, the noncustodial parent of a student enrolled in a public school or day care center shall not be denied the opportunity to participate in any of the student's school or day care activities in which such participation is supported or encouraged by the policies of the school or day care center solely on the basis of such noncustodial status. For the purposes of this section, "school or day care activities" shall include, but shall not be limited to, lunch breaks, special in-school programs, parent-teacher conferences and meetings, and extracurricular activities. It is the responsibility of the custodial parent to provide the court order to the school or day care center.



If dad is allowed there without calling so is mom. If dad can drop in at any time so can mom. YOU CANNOT TREAT MOM AND DAD DIFFERENTLY PER THE LAW! Deny mom or try to have her arrested and watch yourself be arrested. END OF STORY. You would be breaking the law. If dad is allowed on your property when his child is there so is mom. YOu cannot restrict her. I dont care that you are friends with dad. You are a daycare provider. And LDIJ this law speaks on the basis of noncustodial status. A COURT ORDER MUST BE ISSUED STATING SPECIFICALLY THAT MOM IS NOT ALLOWED AT DAYCARE WHEN HER CHILDREN ARE THERE.
Oh and the daycare operator does not have standing to get such an order -- it would have to be family court that would issue it.

I didn't address the issue of whether or not mom was allowed to be there. I addressed the issue of whether or not the daycare provider was required to RELEASE the child to mom, and whether or not the daycare provider would be arrested for not doing so.

 

[Ohiogal]

I didn't address the issue of whether or not mom was allowed to be there. I addressed the issue of whether or not the daycare provider was required to RELEASE the child to mom, and whether or not the daycare provider would be arrested for not doing so.

And the same thing is true. The daycare worker can be arrested and charged with interference with parental rights. Mom and dad have the same ACCESS! Which means if dad can pick up the kids so can mom. A restraining order stating otherwise is necessary and must be provided by the CUSTODIAL PARENT!

Now dad could take mom to court for contempt and most probably would win but that is a DIFFERENT situation. The daycare worker HAS NO RIGHT to prevent mom from picking up the child without a restraining order provided by the custodial parent stating otherwise.

 

[LdiJ]

And the same thing is true. The daycare worker can be arrested and charged with interference with parental rights. Mom and dad have the same ACCESS! Which means if dad can pick up the kids so can mom. A restraining order stating otherwise is necessary and must be provided by the CUSTODIAL PARENT!

Now dad could take mom to court for contempt and most probably would win but that is a DIFFERENT situation. The daycare worker HAS NO RIGHT to prevent mom from picking up the child without a restraining order provided by the custodial parent stating otherwise.

I am trying to be respectful, but we all know that if, for example, a school were to release a child to a parent with no custody (and this parent has no custody), that the school would be in a great deal of trouble. The same applies to a daycare provider.

We all know that if the police were called, that the police would not require a school or daycare provider to release a child to a parent with no custody, when it was not that parent's day for visitation.

I think its incredibly irresponsible of you to give that kind of advice here. All kinds of people read these threads, not just the ops. You don't know what parent you are going to encourage to try to pull a "snatch" from school or daycare (not just a visitation, but a snatch) because you have lead them to believe that they can demand that the school or daycare provider release the child to them when they have no custody.

Parents having access to school records, and access to a child at school or daycare, is a far cry from the child being released to that parent.

You also don't know what other daycare providers might be reading these threads, who would also release a child to a parent with no custody, after reading your words here.....and find themselves in a world of hurt....because they actually believe you that they will be arrested if they don't release the child.

OP Please have your friend consult with his attorney on this issue....you both should be guided by your friend's attorney, not by the advice from an internet message board. If your friend does not have an attorney, tell him to consult one.

 

[fairisfair]

personally,

I wouldn't answer the door. Problem solved.

Oh, but that is just me.

 

[Bloopy]

Thank you all for your advice so far. The best idea if for dad to file a restraining order to prevent pick up outside of her weekend visitation. It would likely be granted given the mental health issues and she is on the edge of supervised visitation. I have not attempted to stop her access at all.

Just to clarify.
Ohio Gal asked, “Do you require all your parents to call before they come get their kids? DO you require that of dad? Mom is entitled to the SAME access as dad.”
I’m not a daycare worker. This is my private home and I have no clients.

IF I were to file a restraining order, and I doubt I would, it would be against her to protect my family and me. She would not be able to be on my property, work etc. She has made enough threats in court against my family that I’d be able to get one on those grounds, rather than the issue of her children.

 

[tigger22472]

Thank you all for your advice so far. The best idea if for dad to file a restraining order to prevent pick up outside of her weekend visitation. It would likely be granted given the mental health issues and she is on the edge of supervised visitation. I have not attempted to stop her access at all.

Just to clarify.
Ohio Gal asked, “Do you require all your parents to call before they come get their kids? DO you require that of dad? Mom is entitled to the SAME access as dad.”
I’m not a daycare worker. This is my private home and I have no clients.

IF I were to file a restraining order, and I doubt I would, it would be against her to protect my family and me. She would not be able to be on my property, work etc. She has made enough threats in court against my family that I’d be able to get one on those grounds, rather than the issue of her children.

Even if you got a restraining order it would not prevent her from going there to retrieve her children. OFTENTIMES they are the exception... even if Dad gets a restraining order against her and despite it saying anyone in his household the children are likely exempt from that. When it comes to parental rights it's a whole new ball game.

 

[Ohiogal]

Thank you all for your advice so far. The best idea if for dad to file a restraining order to prevent pick up outside of her weekend visitation. It would likely be granted given the mental health issues and she is on the edge of supervised visitation. I have not attempted to stop her access at all.

Just to clarify.
Ohio Gal asked, “Do you require all your parents to call before they come get their kids? DO you require that of dad? Mom is entitled to the SAME access as dad.”
I’m not a daycare worker. This is my private home and I have no clients.

IF I were to file a restraining order, and I doubt I would, it would be against her to protect my family and me. She would not be able to be on my property, work etc. She has made enough threats in court against my family that I’d be able to get one on those grounds, rather than the issue of her children.

You are a daycare worker as you are providing day care for this child/these children. Therefore you are to follow the rules.
And if you got a restraining order mom could also get a court order prohibiting you from watching her children due to your ILLEGAL restrictions of her access to them.

 

[ILOVEMYGSM3]

daycare and picking up children

actually most "daycares" and preschools have a sheet which state who IS AND IS NOT allowed to pick up children...if she is not listed as a pick up, (and if the father addressed this with a judge and daycare provider)then, mom is in the wrong...i am on the list to pick up my bro and sis, but their dad is not...from another state, he attempted to "rectify" this, and the judge in his state and in my moms both said since he had VISITATION, that meant he had to schedule IN ADVANCE when he would be picking them up, not just go get them whenever he felt like it.....also, if dad has primary custody, and she has visitation, wouldnt it be considered kidnapping in some state for her to just take the children from the provider, without the father knowing and approving of this? also, if a school or provider knows the person who is attempting to pick up the children is NOT listed, then it is their duty to inform the other parent, and ask that the parent come to assist in rectifying the situation.....

op-i agree with what you did...if i knew the story the way you do, then i would assume that if he KNEW she was coming to get them, he'd have told YOU IT WAS OK...since she didnt tell anyone, it almost sounds like mom had ulterior/alterior(i can say but not spell it) motives, and that she may in fact have had the intention to run...

fiances ex has his daughter...however i've told him at ANY time does she come to MY home to get their daughter(if he is not present), and she appears to be intoxicated(she does pills daily), that i would not allow her to take her, that i would alert the police and in the event i could not get ahold of him i'd call his mom(who shares his custody and visitation since he was military, and yes his papers say that) to come and assist me with the girl until he could arrive...i'll be damned if i know something isnt right, and if something bad were to happen, let it fall on my shoulders...and if it happened again, i'd do the same thing.....

btw-i just scrolled up and realized Ldj addressed the same issue i did to the extent of releasing children...so i apoligize for doing it again...