Guns belonging to Estate

[free_spirit_etc]

What is the name of your state? Illinois

I have a question I was wondering if anyone knew about gun owner's permits.

My husband, who died in February, owned some guns. The Estate, itself, doesn't actually have much money. He left a specific bequest to his daughter, and left me the residual estate. Additionally, I was the beneficiary on his life insurance policy.

His daughter and her husband came to our home the day after my husband's funeral and took what was bequethed to her, quite a few other Estate assets, and some of my personal belongings.

They have threatened lawsuits, etc. to try to get me to agree to give them half of the Estate and half of the life insurance. I tried to negiotiate with them, but we were never able to reach a settlement.

Actually, the Estate doesn't even have enough funds to pay the costs of Administration, burial costs and spouse award. And most of the items of value are still in his daughter's possession.So there won't really be a "residual" Estate. It is mostly about the life insurance.

I am wanting to file a citation to recover assets to get the items back. I am especially concerned about the guns and the motor scooter. The coin collection probably has more value, but I am concerned with liablity issues of guns and a motor scooter which still legally belong to my husband's Estate NOT being in my control.

My question is - my husband had a firearms owner's permit. I do not. If the guns still legally belong to the Estate, will his gun owner's permit cover having the guns in my possession until I can arrange for them to be sold, or would I be required to have a gun owner's permit in my own name in order to have the guns in my possession while adminstering the Estate?

Thank you,
Free

 

[moburkes]

I don't know the answer to the gun question, but tell his daughter to bite rocks about the life insurance. Sorry about your husband.

 

[lwpat]

The first thing you need to do is to go and file for probate and have the court name you as personal representative of the estate. Then you can demand the return of the items or sue for them, probably in small claims. You need to make a list of the items and send them a registered letter demanding their return. Contact the Sheriff about the gun owner permit issue but this seems to be currently the daughter's problem.

 

[free_spirit_etc]

LOL at bite the rocks on the insurance. I have been through lots of drama on this one. His daughter has pulled everything from crying "Why did my dad love you and not me?" to doing an about-face and declaring that her dad really didn't love me (and therefore should not have named me as his beneficiary) to insisting that her dad took out the insurance for HER when she was born - and then saying he took out the insurance when he and her mother divorced and promised to never change it..(it was taken out during his second marriage and named his WIFE as beneficiary) -to her dad wanted me to give her half, etc. etc.

He actually wanted me to pay off the house with the insurance. (Insurance was $94,000. Mortgage is $84,000. Appraised value of house is $95,000). But paying for the burial, attorney, Estate expenses, etc. has already taken a fair sized chunk. His daughter even told me "I KNEW he wanted you to have the house - but I didn't KNOW you couldn't afford to PAY for it!" ( I guess she wanted my share of the Estate to be an $84,000 Mortgage)

It is amazing that they couldn't even wait until I had time to START settling the Estate before they flew in snatching things and insisting I agree to give them HALF of EVERYTHING, like "her dad would have wanted." I thought what her dad wanted was clear in his Will and Beneficiary designation.

I'm sure that if there was enough funds left to give her some extra AFTER everything was taken care of - and giving her some extra money / items would not put me in a position where my needs were not being met - he WOULD have wanted that. But it all seemed to go haywire the moment he died. He certainly would not have wanted all the drama that occured.

It is really sad because it could have all been handled in a much better way.

Free

I don't know the answer to the gun question, but tell his daughter to bite rocks about the life insurance. Sorry about your husband.

 

[free_spirit_etc]

Thanks lwpat. Actually I opened Probate in March. I actually wanted to file a demand for the return of the items - but my attorney was afraid that would make them mad, and cause them to file a claim against the Estate, or a Will Contest. So he initially sent them a letter asking them for the return of the scooter, stock certificates, and my personal property - and informing them that all the other items still belong to the Estate and they are responsible for them. At that time they were insisting they were just keeping the items for "safe keeping" just in case my house might get broken into. (which does not explain them trying to get me to give them the title to the motor scooter.)

They did file a petition to terminate my Independent Administration, but the Court never set a hearing on that. His daughter doesn't want me to have Independent Adminstration as she wants me to have to get court approval for everything - and she wants an accounting of everything I recieve and pay. That seems very odd in that she has ALREADY TAKEN her own inheritance and most of the items which have much value FROM the Estate.

They sent a demand - through their attorney - to keep ALL the items they took, 1/2 the remainder of the Estate, and 1/2 the Life Insurance. So my attorney suggested I try to settle with them - and offer that they could keep all the items they took if they release the Estate and myself from all other claims.

I was hesitant about that because the Estate doesn't even have enough value to pay the burial expenses, adminstration costs, spouse award, and any other claims. So to file a Will Contest - when there will be no residual Estate - is useless. It was basically a way to bully me into giving them 1/2 the insurance.

The settlement was supposed help avoid the drama and avoid the costs of fighting the termination of Independent Administration, possible Will Contest, etc. Basically, it was the price I would pay to get them off my back.

But we never reached a settlement - and it was costing me lots of attorney fees to get nowhere. So I told my attorney to stop negotiating with them. He did inform their attorney that if a settlement wasn't reached by a certain day in July, that the Estate assets needed to be returned - or would be considered stolen.

The 6 month period to file Will Contests or Claims ends this upcoming week. So as soon as that period passes - I was wanting to file a citation to recover assets. They can still fight that in Court and attempt to prove they are the rightful owners - however, they won't be able to file quite as many other things and cost me quite as much.

I do expect them to fight returning the assets - as they now insist I GAVE them everything. But I am hoping the judge will be able to see through that as they took the items the day after his funeral and my attorney sent them a letter informing them that all the property belonged to the Estate.

Plus, they are still holding on to 15 stock certificates for approximately $700 worth of stocks. Those certificates have absolutely NO value to THEM - but as long as I don't have them I would have to pay extra fees to cash in the stocks. They were SUPPOSED to return them as part of the "settlement" (that we never reached) - but their attorney informed us that they had given HIM two certificates. So THEY have 13 certificates, their attorney has 2 certificates. I just got tired of all the games.

Thanks alot for your advice. I do have an attorney. But I try to find out as much as I can on my own to keep the costs down and to know what I need to pay for and what I can do on my own.

Free

The first thing you need to do is to go and file for probate and have the court name you as personal representative of the estate. Then you can demand the return of the items or sue for them, probably in small claims. You need to make a list of the items and send them a registered letter demanding their return. Contact the Sheriff about the gun owner permit issue but this seems to be currently the daughter's problem.

 

[msiron]

I can answer the gun question. You need to get a firearms permit. When the permit holder dies you have so many days (example 60 days) to apply for that permit or your are in illegal possession of firearms. In the mean time call a local firearms dealer and have him come get the guns and either hold or sell them for you.

You will have to go to your local police department and start the application process. Do either one of them have a permit?

Here is link to some Illinois info isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

 

[free_spirit_etc]

Thanks so much. I am assuming they have a permit. He hunts and they have their own guns. Good idea on having someone who has a permit get the guns.

I hadn't really thought about the permit until now - but had wondered if HIS permit would cover the Estate guns. nd I didn't want to have to apply for a permit if I didn't need one - as I probably won't keep the guns. Giving the executor a certain time frame makes a lot of sense. And though I haven't had the guns in my possession - I imagine the time frame has already passed UNLESS it would be permissible for the court to order that I be given time to get the permit - IF we go to court.

I will ask to make arangements for the guns to be delivered to (or picked up by) someone who has a permit - and see about starting the process for me to get a permit in the meantime.

Thanks a lot,

Free

I can answer the gun question. You need to get a firearms permit. When the permit holder dies you have so many days (example 60 days) to apply for that permit or your are in illegal possession of firearms. In the mean time call a local firearms dealer and have him come get the guns and either hold or sell them for you.

You will have to go to your local police department and start the application process. Do either one of them have a permit?

Here is link to some Illinois info isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

 

[msiron]

Thanks so much. I am assuming they have a permit. He hunts and they have their own guns. Good idea on having someone who has a permit get the guns.

I hadn't really thought about the permit until now - but had wondered if HIS permit would cover the Estate guns. nd I didn't want to have to apply for a permit if I didn't need one - as I probably won't keep the guns. Giving the executor a certain time frame makes a lot of sense. And though I haven't had the guns in my possession - I imagine the time frame has already passed UNLESS it would be permissible for the court to order that I be given time to get the permit - IF we go to court.

I will ask to make arrangements for the guns to be delivered to (or picked up by) someone who has a permit - and see about starting the process for me to get a permit in the meantime.

Thanks a lot,

Free

No no, the guns have to be transfered into his name and out of your deceased husbands name, and this most probably has to go through an FFL Dealer to do it.

Get a permit it will cover you for pepper spray and you don't have own a gun, just get the permit.

I am only familiar with MA state law, not Illinois so please talk to a Dealer where you live.

For example in MA there is a ClassA & ClassB permit, ClassA is high capacity firearms, B is usually just rifles and an FID card is just for Pepper Spray.

I will look for some Illinois info for you and post back but the registration of the guns has to transferred to the new owners name and probably through a dealer along with your signature since you are in charge of your husbands estate as you should be.

Please throughly check your state laws. Having ammo in your state without an FID card seems to be an issue also.

 

[msiron]

Here is the info on transferring the ownership for Illinois residents.

isp.state.il.us/media/docdetails.cfm?DocID=557

also if you decide to get your permit you will have to take a Firearms Safety Course then apply for the permit.

Acquiring or Transferring Firearms - Private Citizen Transfer in Illinois
• Private Citizen is defined as "Any person who is not a Federal Firearms Licensed
(FFL) gun dealer who desires to acquire or transfer firearms.”
• Seller and Buyer must possess a valid FOID card.
• Seller and Buyer must verify local firearm ordinance requirements.
• Buyer must display his or her valid FOID card prior to handling the firearm.
• Buyer must abide by the State of Illinois waiting period before taking possession
of the firearm. The waiting period for a long gun is 24 hours and 72 hours for a
hand gun.
• Seller must keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date
of transfer.
• The record must contain the date of the transfer, the description, serial number,
or other information identifying the firearm if no serial number is available.
• Upon transfer of possession, the firearm must be unloaded and enclosed in
a case to transport.

Good luck in life and what's to come.

 

[free_spirit_etc]

Thanks so much. It's kind of odd in Illinois - to buy from a Private Person - the person is supposed to keep a record of the sale - but the sale doesn't actually have to be reported or filed with anyone.

But it brings up another good point - because I was THINKING that as the guns belonged to the Estate - I could have a friend with a gun owner's permit take possession of the guns (not transfer them to the person - but just that the person would HOLD them for me) until I figure out what to do with them. (Then all I would have to do is find a friend with a gun owner permit - lol). That way - if I wanted to sell them I could contact a gun dealer who handles Estates. Or an Estate dealer who handles guns...have the person drop them off there and never have to handle them.

But once the lawyer files for the residual Estate to be awarded to me - the guns would pass to me - ready or not - so I would have to have the gun owner's permit before that happened.

Thanks a lot. I want to make sure I have this straight before it happens...and the info you gave me really helps.

Free

Here is the info on transferring the ownership for Illinois residents.

isp.state.il.us/media/docdetails.cfm?DocID=557

also if you decide to get your permit you will have to take a Firearms Safety Course then apply for the permit.



Good luck in life and what's to come.

 

[JustAPal00]

I guess there is no 2nd amendment in Illinois!

 

[msiron]

Thanks so much. It's kind of odd in Illinois - to buy from a Private Person - the person is supposed to keep a record of the sale - but the sale doesn't actually have to be reported or filed with anyone.

But it brings up another good point - because I was THINKING that as the guns belonged to the Estate - I could have a friend with a gun owner's permit take possession of the guns (not transfer them to the person - but just that the person would HOLD them for me) until I figure out what to do with them. (Then all I would have to do is find a friend with a gun owner permit - lol). That way - if I wanted to sell them I could contact a gun dealer who handles Estates. Or an Estate dealer who handles guns...have the person drop them off there and never have to handle them.

But once the lawyer files for the residual Estate to be awarded to me - the guns would pass to me - ready or not - so I would have to have the gun owner's permit before that happened.

Thanks a lot. I want to make sure I have this straight before it happens...and the info you gave me really helps.

Free

Well getting it straight isn't easy due to wording and open interpretation but yes by all means have a friend who is legal hold the guns.

As your person to person transfer or sale states Seller and Buyer must possess a valid FOID card. I take this to include any type of transfer made.

The safety course is easy to take, then you can get your permit. Whether you keep the guns, buy new guns or pepper spray and I am assuming in your state you need the FID for spray, at least you'll have that permit. Especially now if you are a woman living alone you will need something. Think of it like having a fire extinguisher, just so in case because you never know. It can give you time to get away, or make a decision.

On a note C&R (curios relics holders) must keep records also. This is for older guns and it's on the federal level, not a state requirement.

 

[free_spirit_etc]

You are certainly right on the interpretation part. Even the transfer section discusses seller and buyer. What if you give it away?

But If I don't have a valid permit - they could refuse to give the guns back...and justify it legally. OR they could give them back and then report me for illegal possession of firearms.

But I still think I have the right - as Excecutor - to have them in my "constructive" possession - if someone with a valid gun owner's permit agrees to hold them for me. So they couldn't use that as an excuse for not returning them to the Estate.

And I would need a gun owner's permit to be able to sell them, unless I could sell them while they are still part of the Estate. But even then - it is odd that an Estate just seems to be a gray area between a living person and the next owner of something.

I have had so many problems with getting people to understand that as long as the Estate is open - everything belongs to the Estate.

Everybody wants their money, their items, etc. RIGHT NOW! Geez! I can't even give ME anything yet.

Anyway - I found an application for the permit. It is only $5 and takes up to 30 days. So that will, as you said, give me time. I am taking my time on making decisions about what to keep and what to part with. I can ALWAYS sell something later. But if I sell something and later regret it - I can't get it back.

I am not finding that Illinois requires a gun safety course. My husband did take me out and show me how to load the gun, shoot it, etc. (and I was pretty dang good at it, if I may say so myself - lol He even scanned a copy of my target on the computer.) BUT I only shot the little pump rifle and a small handgun. I still don't like shooting anything that kicks back.

I am not sure if I want to have a gun for protection - as I honestly don't know if I could shoot someone - even in self-defense. That is something I think you would want to be clear about before you tried doing it - because if you pull a gun and then are afraid to use it - you could be in more danger (though I have heard that a gun in the hands of a woman can be pretty frightening). Anyway - in that regard - something like pepper spray might be a better option - though that has it's own problems in spraying the person you mean to spray without incapcitating yourself.

So basically I am hoping I won't have to protect myself in the near future.

Thanks so very much for all the time and energy you put into helping me.

Free

Well getting it straight isn't easy due to wording and open interpretation but yes by all means have a friend who is legal hold the guns.

As your person to person transfer or sale states Seller and Buyer must possess a valid FOID card. I take this to include any type of transfer made.

The safety course is easy to take, then you can get your permit. Whether you keep the guns, buy new guns or pepper spray and I am assuming in your state you need the FID for spray, at least you'll have that permit. Especially now if you are a woman living alone you will need something. Think of it like having a fire extinguisher, just so in case because you never know. It can give you time to get away, or make a decision.

On a note C&R (curios relics holders) must keep records also. This is for older guns and it's on the federal level, not a state requirement.

 

[lwpat]

The life insurance is yours free and clear. You should not use it to pay estate bills such as funeral expenses, attorney fees, etc. These come out of the estate. If you have paid any of these personally you can repay yourself out of the estate prior to any distribution.

 

[free_spirit_etc]

Yes. I have paid all of these - the funeral bills, medical bills, attorney fees, court fees, etc. The Estate didn't really have much in the way of liquid assets. So there is not much in the Estate bank account.(Just a few thousand dollars) Actually, I haven't paid anything out of that account yet. So I figured by this point, I might as well keep paying anything that needs paid - and seeing what I can be reimbursed for.

I have asked my attorney about which expenses I could be reimbursed for -and he just tells me that it doesn't matter unless someone files a claim against the Estate. So I quit asking because I was paying attorney fees to not have my question answered. But I have done some research - and have a pretty good idea.

The last day to file a claim against the Estate is this Saturday. So I guess I will know soon what I have to deal with. My attorney had suggested that I negotiate reduced amounts with creditors and pay them so they wouldn't file against the Estate.

I know that would make it much easier - but I wasn't able to do that in a way that worked for me.

The only creditors I know of are the credit card company and the finance company for his SUV.

Both were pretty impossible to deal with. The credit card company kept letting fraudulent charges be placed on his account for over a month after his death. I mailed and faxed copies of his death certificate and the letters of office SEVERAL times - and spent hours on the phone trying to get them to STOP letting charges be placed on the account (the card even expired a couple weeks after he died). But they wouldn't do anything because they kept saying that his death hadn't been "verified."

Ironically, they couldn't close, or even flag, his account without speaking to him (which was difficult because of his death). But they kept offering to ADD ME as an account holder - and didn't seem to need my permission for that. I declined, of course.

They removed and then re-added the fraudulent charges THREE times - turned it over to collections - and of course the collection agency wouldn't validate the debt (said they didn't have to validate the amount owed since they were offering to settle the debt for less than what was owed), didn't want to wait for Probate to be adminstered - told me I was dishonoring my husband's memory by not paying his bills - and threatened to contact my attorney repeatedly and run up my legal bills until I paid them what they wanted.

So I sent them a letter instructing them to validate the debt, only contact me by mail, and not to contact my attorney.

I didn't see any compelling reason to pay them over $5,000 from MY money to keep them from filing a $6,000 claim against a virtually insolvent Estate.

The dealer finance company for the SUV was equally as hard to deal with. I kept trying to get them to cancel the service contracts and extended warranties on the vehicle so I could reduce the amount owed on it to close to the resale value. They gave me the run around and didn't even work with me in surrendering the vehicle for several months - while they kept adding interest and late fees. They told me they would cancel the contracts before they sold it - but they still haven't done so. Had they cancelled the contracts and taken the vehicle in March - the deficiency would have only been a couple of thousand dollars. But with added interest and late fees and the contracts still in effect - they are asking over $10,000. I just got a letter from a collection agency on that last week - and I responded by asking them to validate the debt and cease collection activities until they do.

In both cases - I didn't really object to the debt - but I object to the amount - and I object to people trying to take advantage of the situation.

Settling debts for valid amounts are one thing - but trying to settle debts with people who are not paying fair just to keep them from filing against an Estate that won't have funds to pay them is not something I want to do.

Oh - and his ex-wife's current husband sent me a letter letting me know that the Estate owes her $93. She got 18% of his military retirment pay - through a DOD allotment (Former Spouse Protection Act). And they are alleging that she did not get her allotment in March for the 5 days he was alive in February. Ironically, she got her FULL allotment in February - and she has to pay him 13.5% of HER military retirement - but she pays by check (not allotment) and she only sent a payment for the five days he was alive. So I haven't even dealt with her. But as she got her payments through DOD allotment - she should have been paid everything she was owed.

So there are three POTENTIAL claims against the Estate - besides his daughter's threats to file a Will Contest.

I guess since most of the value of the Estate is in the equity in the house - I will have to get the house appraised if any claims are filed. The mortgage was $84,000 when he died. It had been appraised at $95,000. But the County Assessor had the Fair Market Value at $107,000.

So the Estate has whatever equity is in the house, a few thousand dollars, about $12,000 in value of the coin collection, guns, tools, motor scooter, etc. that my step-daughter and her husband took, and whatever I could get if I sold my husband's other personal possessions right now.

My husband had been fighting cancer for several years - which took a big chunk of funds.

Free

The life insurance is yours free and clear. You should not use it to pay estate bills such as funeral expenses, attorney fees, etc. These come out of the estate. If you have paid any of these personally you can repay yourself out of the estate prior to any distribution.