Harassment or not

[nodos]

What is the name of your state? AR
Help

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About 1 1/2 wks ago, a woman phoned my house asking for info about my MIL. I inquired as to the nature of her business and told her MIL does not live here. She refused to give me any info but asked if I knew how to contact MIL. I told her that I was not at liberty to divulge that info. A few hours later, another woman from the same phone number called and left a message on the ans. mach. I left the message for hubby to hear. A couple days later, I asked hubby if he had listened to message. He had not and asked me to return the woman's call (via speakerphone..so he could talk if needed). I called the number, a man answered, I asked for the woman. He very curtly informed the that he was in charge and wanted to know the name I was calling about. i again requested info regarding his company and the nature of the call. He began to shout at me stating that he could not reveal anything until I gave him the name. I gave him the last name and then he asked, "What is the first name?". I told him MIL's first name since that is who the caller had said they were trying to contact. He instantly began to call me by MIL's first name, yelling at me that I owed a huge debt to Citibank and he was going to take legal action if I did not tell him immediately what I planned to do abut the debt. Since MIL is demented and has a Power of Attorney (PoA) and legal guardian, I felt I should call the PoA/guardian and let her take control of this matter. I told the man that I would have to call him back. He began threatening me again and I hung up on him. He immediately called me back. I let the ans. mach. pick up...he began shouting at me, telling me to contact him within 30 minutes or I would be in deep legal trouble. I picked up at that point and told him that I am NOT "MIL's first name" but am her DIL. He then ranted and raved at me stating that I am now in legal trouble for fraud and he was going to have to take action against me. I hung up on him and called my attorney. She was irate and stated that he was legally in the wrong. She advised me to file a complaint with the AG office and the BBB and call the collector back and inform him that I had filed complaints with the AG and BBB. Meanwhile, hubby was contacting PoA/guardian and relayed the whole situation to her. She says she will contact them and straighten things out.
Then I called the collection agency and told them about filing the complaints. Hubby and I left town for 6 days. Upon our return, there were 36 messages on my ans. mach from the collection agency telling me to call and resolve "an issue" with them. I have not called them. I DID call PoA and inform her that they are harassing us with their relentless phone calls and that I am considering filing some kind of lawsuit against them. I researched the company on the internet and they are notorious for their disreputable actions. I also found a message forum where one guy said that he also was an innocent bystander (NOT A DEBTOR) and had been harassed by phone calls from that company for over 10 months on a 4-5x day basis.
Hubby & I have excellent credit and are concerned that this company may do something to destroy that through their inefficiency. Do you know if I have any recourse or grounds for a lawsuit? I know they have done this to other folks too. And according to their BBB report, that have had numerous complaints filed against them for just such action. Any advice or suggestions?

 

[Chien]

Any advice or suggestions?

Forget about BBB?

Talk to an attorney who knows something about this area of the law, and then stop thinking “lawsuit”?

Let PoA/guardian take control, as you originally intended, and allow her to address it? You don’t give enough information about MIL to know what action she should take, but giving them notice to cease and desist seems possible.

In any event, urge PoA/guardian to decide on a course of action and take it – for MIL and you – because you have muddied the waters enough that there is probably little that you could do that would prevent them from justifying their actions with a bona fide error defense.

Do I have grounds for a lawsuit?

The closest you come is whatever “I am now in legal trouble for fraud and he was going to have to take action against me” means. That’s out of context, in a telephone conversation. One which you ignored and then participated in and in which, they would argue, you changed the name by which you identified yourself. Their story is going to be different about all of that, and it’s “he said – she said”.

Beyond that, they did not reach you in any of those 36 calls. They left a message, and you have not called back. The answering machine is not going to sue for harassment.

Frankly, while you may feel that you were being cautious, protective and well-intentioned, an attorney will argue that you were intentionally evasive, deceptive and duplicitous and were trying to bait them into a FDCPA violation. “he said – she said”.

 

[TigerD]

Frankly, while you may feel that you were being cautious, protective and well-intentioned, an attorney will argue that you were intentionally evasive, deceptive and duplicitous and were trying to bait them into a FDCPA violation. “he said – she said”.

And, by identifying yourself as your mother-in-law, you have given them a valid number. Ironically, you can't even send them a cease and desist since you don't have any standing in the collection and the phone was verified as correct.

The op was a busybody and stuck her nose were it didn't belong. Since you jumped into this matter, you will need to follow through and make sure you mother-in-law and the CA talk and that the bill gets paid. The issue is now connected to you forever.

DC

 

[GulfBreeze]

And, by identifying yourself as your mother-in-law, you have given them a valid number. Ironically, you can't even send them a cease and desist since you don't have any standing in the collection and the phone was verified as correct.

The op was a busybody and stuck her nose were it didn't belong. Since you jumped into this matter, you will need to follow through and make sure you mother-in-law and the CA talk and that the bill gets paid. The issue is now connected to you forever.

DC

this is 100% wrong.

didn't expected anything less coming from another debt collector.

Suggestion to this party. Change your phone number if possible. Send them a letter stating that the person they seek doesn't live there and that any further calls will be considered harassment.

again, all these calls are nothing more than harassment. if they had a case to file, let them. phoning people up and talking to them in this matter will not get them anywhere. debt collectors are trained from birth to be rude and obnoxious. they are just mad because they were denied breast milk and seek retribution from the rest of society. let them sit behind their "little" monitors with their phone headsets on, cursing the rest of mankind about the debts that they feel entitled to. then after a long day at the office, they can jump into their pinto wagon and drive back home to their trailer space and open a can of beans, watching Rosanne reruns. What a pathetic life. I see it all the time, kids running around saying they want to grow up to be a "debt collector" (I am a Professional Debt Collector).....lol Hey, but I guess there has to be some sort of work out there for these high school dropouts.

 

[Chien]

Originally Posted by debtcollector`
And, by identifying yourself as your mother-in-law, you have given them a valid number. Ironically, you can't even send them a cease and desist since you don't have any standing in the collection and the phone was verified as correct.

The op was a busybody and stuck her nose were it didn't belong. Since you jumped into this matter, you will need to follow through and make sure you mother-in-law and the CA talk and that the bill gets paid. The issue is now connected to you forever.

That’s exactly the way that I saw it. I tried to think of some remedy or recourse that she might have to extricate herself for herself while PoA/guardian stepped in, but I think, legally, she has pressed every wrong button. She can’t send a C&D, and she is dependent on others to get her out of the mud.

OP – I doubt that you found any CA with a good report card on BBB, and I’m sure this isn’t what you wanted to hear. Whether these folks are particularly good or bad, I did try to see it from your end of the telescope, and I think you’ve put yourself in a very untenable position. On the facts posted, my legal reaction was “it would be pretty easy to defend that case”, and that's an uncommon response.

Even GulfBreeze, who is regularly marching to a different drummer anyway, only offers a “non-solution”. If you send them his suggested letter, you just continue to dig this hole deeper.

 

[GulfBreeze]

Even GulfBreeze, who is regularly marching to a different drummer anyway, only offers a “non-solution”. If you send them his suggested letter, you just continue to dig this hole deeper.

Am I wrong in reading this. A debt collector is phoning someone other than the debtor and harassing them for the other person's debt?

I stand by my first suggestion. CHANGE YOUR PHONE NUMBER. have it unlisted, non-published. Don't give it out to anyone you don't know. That will take care of the phone calls. If they need to get a hold of the debtor, they can find them elsewhere.

 

[Chien]

I stand by my first suggestion.

You can stand on your head, but read the FDCPA.

Short of changing her number or ripping out the phone, she put herself into this. I'm not unsympathic, but she went too far, and changing her number wasn't advice that I was ready to give. The PoA/guardian can still bring it to an end with a cease and desist, if that's what she chooses, but the OP's solutions are to tolerate or hide.

 

[nodos]

First of all, thank you all for responding. The only thing that I think you guys misunderstood, was the part about my MIL's name.

I gave him the last name and then he asked, "What is the first name?". I told him MIL's first name since that is who the caller had said they were trying to contact.

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When they called originally, they said they were trying to reach "MIL's name". I told them she did not live here and they persisted in trying to obtain contact info. My youngest son was a cop and he always advised, "NEVERgive out information to someone unless you are certain who you are talking to." Since they would not identify themselves or at least say the name of their company...I chose not to divulge any info to them.
Then, because it is hubby's mom and because MIL lives w/PoA/guardian (another family member), hubby wanted to also be sure that he wasn't passing on info to "just anyone". That is why he returned the call from the answering machine message (or had me do it). When I called, I did not say that "MIL's name" was MY NAME[/U....the rude man did not ask "What is your name?"...he said what is the name.Therefore, by telling him MIL's name, I was answering the question he asked (the name on the account!)....not trying to defraud anyone!!! PoA/guardian has unlisted # and has asked hubby to screen calls that ask for info re: MIL....MIL has dementia and suffers from life-long depression. It was never my intent to defraud anyone and my attorney has told me that I DID NOT commit fraud.
Therefore, since PoA has contacted them, has given them a valid # to reach PoA, I don't beleive that they are within their legal rights to continue calling my #. Additionally, when PoA talked with them, and they said MIL had an outstanding debt with Citibank, PoA asked for the SSN of the account holder (allegedly MIL) and it wasn't even MIL's SSN!!!
Again, I appreciate all the answers you have given. I don't think you told me anything of help though....

 

[GulfBreeze]

You can stand on your head, but read the FDCPA.

Short of changing her number or ripping out the phone, she put herself into this. I'm not unsympathic, but she went too far, and changing her number wasn't advice that I was ready to give. The PoA/guardian can still bring it to an end with a cease and desist, if that's what she chooses, but the OP's solutions are to tolerate or hide.

I think you have been standing on your head too long.

What part of it don't you understand? you are not "unsympathetic"?

What does the FDCPA have to do with it? Get over yourself. You are not working with a full deck. The creditor is calling a phone number that isn't the MIL. Not even the PoA. It might be a family member in some way, but the creditor is harassing a home in which they may think it will lead to them getting a hold of the debtor, but isn't. If I were to get calls from someone who wanted to get a hold of my cousin, FIL, MIL, that doesn't live in my home or never did, I would take it as harassment and even file a complaint against the company with the phone company/police. My phone number is not for creditors to call and leave thousands of messages for someone else. I have gotten messages in fact, at my house, for people who at one time had my phone number. I tell them they don't live here and they have the wrong number. Usually they stop, but some will call over and over. When I get mad and tell them to stop calling, they just get rude and still call. Debt collectors can be idiots and rude at times.

So...give us some of your wisdom now Chien. Why it is okay to harass people over the phone. We are waiting for your brilliant answer....

 

[TigerD]

Again, I appreciate all the answers you have given. I don't think you told me anything of help though....

Probably not but I'll try again regardless.
1. I don't think anybody is accusing you of fraud, merely of getting in to the middle of something that didn't concern you.

This is how it works:
When the skiptracer is looking for someone they call every number they can find associated with the skip. One of those numbers was you. You can try and play word games but the bottom line is when you are asked for your name -- you gave them your mother-in-laws. Since you called in and provided the info -- the number you called from is a good and valid number. Now your mother-in-law is connected to your phone and address as a GOOD contact in the database.

Every time you protest that you aren't your mother-in-law and she doesn't live there, the collector will know that you are lying, because he knows: "She called us from that number and pretended to be someone else when she found out why we called."

You need to get the PoA to handle this promptly. Personally, I suggest the PoA send a cease and desist letter - since your MIL is essentially judgment proof. But that has to come from them.

DC

 

[Chien]

OP – Again, I have to echo DC’s comments verbatim. And I too do it regardless.

I am sorry, and I’m particularly sorry if you inferred that I was accusing you of fraud. I didn’t say that I thought “the case” would be a relatively easy case to prosecute as a civil matter, I said “defend”. I went to pains to single out the statement pertaining to fraud as the one grey area I saw in the post, and that occurred in a telephone conversation that would be remembered differently by the parties.

In my opinion, the fly first got in the ointment with “I told her that I was not at liberty to divulge that info” and it spiraled down from there. They were trying to find MIL and, without even yet getting into the mixed-message name changes, would have been limited to a single call for that purpose “unless the debt collector reasonably believes that the earlier response of such person is erroneous or incomplete and that such person now has correct or complete location information”. So they reasonably decided that you knew but weren’t disclosing, and that gave them the right to call again.

The rest of it was summed up by DC, but to give you a reference, the reason that I said “let PoA/guardian take control, as you originally intended” is “that without the prior consent of the consumer given directly to the debt collector . . . a debt collector may not communicate, in connection with the collection of any debt, with any person other than a consumer, his attorney, a consumer reporting agency if otherwise permitted by law, the creditor, the attorney of the creditor, or the attorney of the debt collector”. But you were already both MIL and DIL. PoA/guardian had to straighten that out.

I also thought that a C&D letter was the probable and appropriate response. I didn’t go as far as DC and said it “seems possible”, because I didn’t know everything there was to know about MIL’s condition. I thought it would be the probable resolution.

“Harassment” didn’t engender the response that you expected because, according to the post, there were only four calls that were 2-way, and you initiated two of those. The rest of the calls were taken by a machine. I wasn’t reaching for a punch line, when I said the machine is not going to sue. You can be sure that there is ample case law on this point.

One form of proscribed conduct defined as harassment under the FDCPA is “causing a telephone to ring or engaging any person in telephone conversation repeatedly or continuously with intent to annoy, abuse, or harass any person at the called number”. You weren’t home and didn’t have conversations when you were. The caller has no way of knowing if you’re out or ignoring. They want to talk to you, so they call.

Neither DC nor I condone or defend FDCPA violations, but I didn’t see them in your post. Between your son’s advice, your natural instincts, your MIL’s condition and the CA trying to do its job (however unpalatable the method), I thought you were a victim of circumstances, but not more. I do hope that an attorney familiar with such matters would have given you different advice than to contact the AG and BBB.

 

[jinky]

First thing to do is keep those recordings and see an attorney. This will do nothing to your credit as it is not yours. Please acquaint yourself with the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. You were harassed and you should go after them. Not saying you'll get much as it is usually held to $1000 per act, but I think you could get more with the answering machine. That went way beyond the act of decency.

 

[Chien]

You were harassed and you should go after them. Not saying you'll get much as it is usually held to $1000 per act, but I think you could get more with the answering machine.

Hi Jinky,

Would you explain to the OP what acts constituted harassment and how the answering machine will be used to enhance damages? Statutory authority and case citations would benefit all members and readers, if you have them.

 

[jinky]

Hi Jinky,

Would you explain to the OP what acts constituted harassment and how the answering machine will be used to enhance damages? Statutory authority and case citations would benefit all members and readers, if you have them.

My mistake. After re-reading the OP she should call the police and press charges for harassment. She gave MIL's name, but did tell them she was NOT MIL. As I'm not an attorney I have no idea what statute that would fall under. As said previously, the rantings on the answering machine are evidence.

 

[Chien]

Excuse me, but I’m having great difficulty following this. Is it now your advice that she should press charges for “criminal harassment”? And the “answering machine evidence” that you refer to is the one call that the OP characterized as evincing “ranting and raving”? Or would it be the other calls that she described as “telling [her] to call and resolve an issue”. Since she didn’t characterize those calls as “ranting”, is it fair to believe you are referring to the one call? If so, evidence of what?

Oh, and you may have read too quickly. Contrary to your belief, she did tell them she was not MIL:
“I picked up at that point and told him that I am NOT "MIL's first name" but am her DIL.”
Well, your mistake aside, help us understand where the FDCPA violation(s) occurred, and just cite to those sections. That should be much easier. This is becoming so confusing and I’m trying to stay with you.