Creditor harrassment

[threetime]

What is the name of your state? North Carolina

Ok to start with, I am going through a bad divorce and have lost my job. I know its not the company I borrowed money from problems, but I have no where to turn till i get my job back. I don't have any spare cash to pay anything. Last night a credit company called me, and I answered it, and talked about the debt owed as I am not trying to avoid the dreaded calls. So the guy didn't want to hear that I was on hard times and told me I needed to go borrow the money from my parents which happen to be old and on disability. After the third time of telling me to go burden my parents I got a little bit peeved told him I wasn't going to do that, and this guy started screaming at me, calling my worthless bum who should get off my ass and get a job and pay the debt I owe. None the less this sparked a rage in me so I retaliated by raising my voice and telling him what i thought about him which is kinda childish I know, but did it anyways. finally he stopped ranting at me and I ask him his name, badge number, and who exactly he worked for, and he said he wasnt talking to a bum anymore and he had other people to call and I could could ask his supervisor his name, badge and company name. I told him yeah thats what I want to do, so he put me on hold and the supervisor never came. Is this legal to call and do what he did? I have always paid off any debt owed by me and plan on paying this one also once I get a job. what should I do to stop this guy from calling me and speaking to me like he did last night. Thanks for the advice and this is really bothering me and I cant quit thinking of some of the things the guy said to me, and it may seem unbelievable that this guy would say what I stated, but I swear he did, this isnt made up.

 

[Chien]

OP – This is going to be the reality, until you get your situation – all of it – the divorce, the job and the toll that it’s taking – under control. You say you’ve never had debt problems, so you’ve never received “the dreaded calls”. Now you know what they are. You say that you’re not trying to avoid them but, when they start coming, you call it harassment. I’m not unsympathetic to you or sympathetic to them, but there is an important line to recognize.

Here is the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act:
http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm

Look at Section 806, defining harassment. Don’t misinterpret sub-sections 2 (language), 5 (calls to harass) or 6 (meaningful disclosure of identity) without asking a few more questions. The information posted so far doesn’t rise to the level of violations; it’s just very unpleasant to be on the receiving end – hence the term “dreaded calls”.

These will continue until you have some means to respond to them with payment proposals (then the nature of your questions is likely to change).

The collector’s goal is not to discuss your life, problems and good intentions. It’s to seize power psychologically and to have you backpedaling to the point that you make a payment offer. If you had a job tomorrow, they can’t garnish wages in your state, so he wants you to get the money now and from some other source. If you take a loan that you can’t repay, you become somebody else’s problem but not his. His job is just to get paid.

If you understand the dynamic, it may be a little easier for you to “roll with the punches”. You have to find the answer.

 

[threetime]

Thanks for the advice I really appreciate it a lot.

 

[ecmst12]

If you can't pay right now, but will be able to in the near future, I see no reason to subject yourself to talking to the collectors now. Talk to them when you have money to offer.

 

[Amerikaner]

Get everything in writing NO phone calls

I'm a big fan of getting everything in writing when dealing with a collection agency. Not only does it let the debtor "get their breath", so to speak (as most debtors can be easily intimidated by collectors, even those following the law), it also keeps both sides honest.

 

[Chien]

OP – I’m going to offer a different perspective than that of ecmst12 and Amerikaner – not a right vs. wrong perspective, just different. And I’m not a retail collector; I’m a commercial attorney. It would be nice if some of the retail collectors who post here added their thoughts. You decide what works and what may cause problems for you.

As for not talking until you can make an offer, that would be a bad decision with me. I think all other collectors would concur, although perhaps for different reasons. We all seem to value communication and responsiveness. For me, I send one letter alerting the debtor to my involvement in the matter and requesting payment or a telephonic response to discuss arrangements, when the debt is very large. I begin with a good address and a good phone number and will make a call after the letter has had time to be received and there has been no reply. If a debtor is responsive and tells me “not now but in X days because . . . .”, the chances are good that I’ll grant the X days. It’s really self-interest, because it’s more time-consuming to sue and I can wait X days to do it. I emphasize that we’ll talk periodically and it’s important to keep communications open. The debtor who stonewalls me, when I know that the letter and messages are received, is in litigation by the time we first speak, if we ever do.

As for putting everything in writing, instead of talking or in addition to talking, that’s not going to happen. If you want to know the basis for the debt, I’ll fax that to you or your attorney. I’m a big believer in informal discovery. It’s just a way of saying, “If we take the field, this is why I win”. But I don’t pay my paralegal to spend all day typing what I’ve told you or you already know. I’ll send you a Confession of Judgment to support a payment plan and that’s it.

I don’t have to seize power; I have it. I can hold out a carrot first, because I have a very big stick in the other hand and will use it, if necessary. I prefer not to and tell you that. I don’t threaten; I explain my alternatives and leave the choice to you. I’m not a CA; I’m the person who comes next, but I don’t think the mind-set is too different.

 

[TigerD]

I collect retail debt. I have managed accounts for large agencies and made a fair amount of cash running my own agency.

What Chien is saying is 100 percent correct. If you try to stonewall me -- I'll put your number on the autodialer and call your home number every 5 five minutes from 8 in the morning until 9 p.m. My stick pre-legal isn't as big. But I can rattle your cage. If I can't -- then we turn it over to our legal department.

The obligatory toughness aside - communications is key. The debt is a problem that everyone wants to resolve. You want it off your back and the collector wants it off his desk. The only way that is going to happen is by talking to each other.

As for every thing in writing. Not going to happen. I'll fax a settlement agreement and mail a paid in full letter but you don't get anything without writing checks. Mt collectors are too busy to play games like that with debtors. You might be seriously willing to pay if only you get this ... but most people that try that crap are deadbeats looking for a technical. Also - it takes too much time. If you become time-consuming and I think there is money to pay the bill, I'll kick your file over to legal. Let the lawyer add his fees to your account. He gets to add legal fees to your debt.

Bottom line - you become a problem, you may well get the door slammed on you.

DC

 

[Amerikaner]

As for putting everything in writing, instead of talking or in addition to talking, that’s not going to happen. If you want to know the basis for the debt, I’ll fax that to you or your attorney. I’m a big believer in informal discovery. It’s just a way of saying, “If we take the field, this is why I win”. But I don’t pay my paralegal to spend all day typing what I’ve told you or you already know. I’ll send you a Confession of Judgment to support a payment plan and that’s it.

It's not a matter of typing what they tell you or what they already know. Like I said - I like paper trails for the simple reason that it keeps both sides honest. How many times (with regard to ANYTHING) has a misunderstanding occured because one person thought the other person was saying something they weren't? Or something turns into a "he said, he said" type argument? Is that not the very reason why contracts are written, and all the fine print even exists in the first place?? To avoid things such as the above from happening? While I understand the point of the collector is expedious (sp?) collection of funds - I think the debtor (or any other party in any matter) needs to have everything in writing, just in case.

The obligatory toughness aside - communications is key. The debt is a problem that everyone wants to resolve. You want it off your back and the collector wants it off his desk. The only way that is going to happen is by talking to each other.

As for every thing in writing. Not going to happen. I'll fax a settlement agreement and mail a paid in full letter but you don't get anything without writing checks. Mt collectors are too busy to play games like that with debtors. You might be seriously willing to pay if only you get this ... but most people that try that crap are deadbeats looking for a technical. Also - it takes too much time. If you become time-consuming and I think there is money to pay the bill, I'll kick your file over to legal. Let the lawyer add his fees to your account. He gets to add legal fees to your debt.

Bottom line - you become a problem, you may well get the door slammed on you.

DC

I agree with some aspects of your post, DC. Others, not so much. The only way that is going to happen is by talking to each other - I agree with that concept...but not the "talking" part. Let's be realistic. What difference is a letter going to make time-wise? 3 days or so? Come on. Collection agencies send letters all the time! Sometimes to those who aren't legally obligated to pay the debt anymore! Just because the normal mass mailing form letters are easier and faster to send than anything that has to be customised, doesn't mean it's a bad idea! But if someone does not wish to proceed with letters for whatever reason, I hear telephone recording devices are pretty cheap!

Like I said...I'm a HUGE fan of "verifiability". I like having a transcript or something I can refer back to that is a true and accurate account of communication.

If you try to stonewall me -- I'll put your number on the autodialer and call your home number every 5 five minutes from 8 in the morning until 9 p.m.

And that's legal....how? I understand the point you're making...but the actual interpretation of that comment would lead a litigious consumer to get $1,000.00 out of you for FDCPA violation:

§ 806. Harassment or abuse [15 USC 1692d]

A debt collector may not engage in any conduct the natural consequence of which is to harass, oppress, or abuse any person in connection with the collection of a debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section:

(1) The use or threat of use of violence or other criminal means to harm the physical person, reputation, or property of any person.

(2) The use of obscene or profane language or language the natural consequence of which is to abuse the hearer or reader.

(3) The publication of a list of consumers who allegedly refuse to pay debts, except to a consumer reporting agency or to persons meeting the requirements of section 603(f) or 604(3)1 of this Act.

(4) The advertisement for sale of any debt to coerce payment of the debt.

(5) Causing a telephone to ring or engaging any person in telephone conversation repeatedly or continuously with intent to annoy, abuse, or harass any person at the called number.

(6) Except as provided in section 804, the placement of telephone calls without meaningful disclosure of the caller's identity.

Pretty sure every 5 minutes would qualify


It's no secret here that I'm a huge consumer advocate, visiting several boards such as this. However - that being said, I'm not one of those who advocates suing for every little perceived FDCPA violation. If a collector is operating within the law - great. If not - well they need to learn how to do it.

 

[Chien]

Pretty sure every 5 minutes would qualify.

I appreciate what you’re saying, but you’re wrong on that point and your litigious consumer fails. Read DC’s statement and read sect. 806(5) in context. The debtor is stonewalling – i.e. not answering. You can’t act with intent to annoy, abuse, or harass any person who isn’t there to be annoyed, abused or harassed, and that’s the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from an unanswered phone. Is the plaintiff going to argue that the reasonable conclusion should be that he was avoiding calls? Nope. He just lost his attorneys’ fees and pays the defendant’s costs of suit.

And I predict that’s going to happen more often:
https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=385528

As far as your response to my comment about writing, we’re not in disagreement. The debtor or his attorney gets everything substantive, with “ts” crossed and “is” dotted. I’m more concerned about the paper trail than the CA, because I expect that I’ll have to prove it in court, but I’m not doing “busy work” because a debtor wants to string things out and, in my work, the difference is always clear to both of us.
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Incidentally, Amerikaner, welcome to the forum. Another informed voice is always appreciated. As is obvious, we don’t always all completely agree but, ironically, none are more aggressive about defending the right to accurate and insightful information than the collectors and debt attorneys. A sound foundation for your input is respected; take disagreement with a grain of salt – it doesn’t mean you’re not right (except this time <g>).

 

[annajosie]

This is a response to debt collector's input.

You may have the big guns to collect a debt, but the debtor has an even bigger gun, it's called "BANKRUPTCY". Once they file that, you have to stop calling them, isn't that correct?

 

[TigerD]

And that's legal....how? I understand the point you're making...but the actual interpretation of that comment would lead a litigious consumer to get $1,000.00 out of you for FDCPA violation:

Pretty sure every 5 minutes would qualify

Actually, no. Intent is very hard to prove. The "intent" is to talk to joe deadbeat. If he isn't there or doesn't answer his phone, we call back. Since he isn't there, we can't be annoying him by calling and if he was there he'd answer the phone.

The FDCPA cuts both ways.

##Added to address AnnaJosie's post##
Bankruptcy isn't a gun for debtors in collections. To take the gun reference a little farther, that is akin to dropping a nuke on your town to keep the attacking army from getting it. Bankruptcy is a valuable for people in over their heads - usually for reasons beyond their control. I think you'll find that there are few collectors or attorneys that have problems with people honestly filing bankruptcy.

That said, yes. You have to stop calling during bankruptcy. However, it still helps the collector. The file gets kicked over to legal and doesn't count against the collector's performance numbers. And if the debtor should do something to screw up their bankruptcy -- well, all their debts could become non-dischargable. But that is an issue for the attorneys.

DC

 

[Jaun22]

I never knew that about the no calling after bankruptcy has been claimed. Good to know.

 

[TigerD]

I never knew that about the no calling after bankruptcy has been claimed. Good to know.

Not claimed --- FILED.

DC

 

[Chien]

annajosie – shame on you. I’m beginning to think that you challenge DC just to get a rise. Still irritated about the dog and the sex trade? One was sensible and the other a joke. And both are old.

In a sense, this is gratuitous, because I agree with DC about bankruptcy. For readers, it’s just an “amen” from an attorney’s perspective. I used to do both commercial and bankruptcy work and got tired of being in two court systems. But I’m still a BK court mediator, and BK should not be a knee-jerk response to problems that can otherwise be addressed, in my opinion. There are worse things in life and it does give you a clean slate, but it leaves a lot of debris. What happens when the next curveball is thrown and you don’t have that refuge for 7 years? I don’t see it as a big gun, unless you’re talking about Russian Roulette.

I can honestly say that I’ve never forced somebody into BK. I’ve had some go, but they ran out of options and ignored help. I’ve had some about whom I said to myself, “I wish he would just go and put me out of my misery (of dealing with somebody who was hand-to-mouth each month – a lot of work). But I get “thank yous” from attorneys for crafting deals that allow their clients to pay and also avoid BK, and that’s sensible thinking.

And that comes full-circle back to communication. Those deals couldn’t be crafted, if everyone wasn’t open and responsive and all cards on the table weren’t played face-up. You duck and hide and nobody knows, so they assume the worst, rather than try to work with you.

 

[VeronicaLodge]

Not claimed --- FILED.

DC

hahaha that made me think of the episode of the office where michael walks out of his office into the open area to 'declare' bankruptcy "I DECLARE .... BANKRUPTCY" hehehe