Two parking tickets for single violation within one hour

[John111]

What is the name of your state? New York

I parked in NYC approximately 50 yards from the sign which reads “NO STANDING EXCEPT SUNDAYS NO PARKING ANYTIME”. After coming back about 1.5 hr later I found two tickets next to each other. I examined both carefully and found them identical except complainant signature and time: first one was 1:46 PM, second one 2:45 PM. “Violation” section on both states “No Parking (d)”, amount is $65, the same “place of occurrence” and everything else was the same.

Section “Time 1st Observed” is blank on both tickets.

I realize that I misread the sign – “Except Sundays” applied only to “No standing” part, not to “No Parking”. But can I be ticketed twice for the same offence in the same place within 59 minutes?

Thanks,

John

 

[randomguy]

It seems that is how i ist done in New York and it's totally legal.

 

[The Occultist]

You can be ticketed every minute you are in violation. The officer could have stood there for the entire hour writing ticket after ticket if he really wanted to.

 

[patstew]

You can be ticketed every minute you are in violation. The officer could have stood there for the entire hour writing ticket after ticket if he really wanted to.

In my town, officers are allowed to give a citation for the same violation every two hours. Do NYC's ordinances really say they can give a ticket as you described? That's harsh!

 

[John111]

Thanks all for your answers.

I find it hard to believe that it is legal to get a ticket for each minute of violation. If that was the case, I could have been fined 90 min*$65=$5850.

Is there any law, code, statute or anything else that regulates how and when parking tickets can be issued in NYC? If anybody knows, could you please paste a link? There should be some regulation which says if $65 ir per minute, per 30 mins, per hour, per day or per other time period.

John

 

[seniorjudge]

Is there an ordinance number on the ticket?

 

[patstew]

Is there any law, code, statute or anything else that regulates how and when parking tickets can be issued in NYC? If anybody knows, could you please paste a link? There should be some regulation which says if $65 ir per minute, per 30 mins, per hour, per day or per other time period.

Is there a phone number on the ticket? When in doubt, GO TO THE SOURCE.

A radical notion, I know, but hey...

 

[John111]

Seniorjudge, thanks for the hint. Violation code is 20. After some research I found that "Official Compilation of Rules of the City of New York" chapter 39 is the document regulating how parking violations are administrated (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/pdf/04pdf/parking_rules39.pdf). I've read all 27 pages and must say that it is impossible to determine if more than one ticket can be issued for a single violation and if so, how often. "Code 20" simply says "General No Parking: No parking where parking is prohibited by sign, street marking or traffic control device.".

Basic logics suggests me that if it is not specified how often ticked can be issued for the same violence it can only be issued once. Otherwise there would be nothing to prevent police from issuing virtually unlimitted number of tickets (e.g. every second) resulting in virtualy unlimited fine.

I have never been in any court hearing. How does it work? Can I ask them to prove(provide documented evidence) that I can be penalized multiple times for a single offence? Or it's my obligation to prove that I can't be?

Patstew, yes, I tried to call the number. Lady at the other end was only able to tell me when to come for a hearing and that I should hire a lawyer if I have any legal questions.

Thanks,

John

 

[PrinceCharming]

I believe it is every minute in NYC.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Basic logics suggests me that if it is not specified how often ticked can be issued for the same violence it can only be issued once. Otherwise there would be nothing to prevent police from issuing virtually unlimitted number of tickets (e.g. every second) resulting in virtualy unlimited fine.

Luckily, the law doesn't operate on basic (or any other) logic. If there is no law prohibiting something, it is permitted. There is no law prohibiting tickets every second. Nor every minute. Common sense, or at least what passes for it at the PVB, says that the Administrative Law Judges may, at their discretion, dismiss subsequent, multiple tickets if they feel the tickets were written too close in time to each other. As a practical matter, I've seen the latter of two tickets written 5 minutes apart dismissed, and two tickets written an hour apart upheld. It depends on how much the ALJ likes you, I guess, as there is no law, rule, statute, ordinance or regulation which dictates what 'must' be done.

I have never been in any court hearing. How does it work? Can I ask them to prove(provide documented evidence) that I can be penalized multiple times for a single offence? Or it's my obligation to prove that I can't be?

Good lord, please don't do that as it would pretty much guarantee that both tickets would be upheld. And, for reference's sake, you have the burden of proving any defense that you make.
The process: You go to a local PVB office and take a number. A clerk looks over your tickets to see if there are any obvious defects upon which to dismiss them. If none, you wait for your number to be called and go into a small office with the ALJ. You make your spiel, they make their ruling. Maybe 3 minutes, 5 minutes tops if you're a tough negotiator.

Patstew, yes, I tried to call the number. Lady at the other end was only able to tell me when to come for a hearing and that I should hire a lawyer if I have any legal questions.

Clerks are not permitted to offer legal advice. If you go in person, sometimes you can get a friendly one to bend the rules a little, but they are quite limited as to how much substantive help they can give.

 

[John111]

YouAreGuilty,

Thanks a lot for your answer.

Although I am pretty sure what you are saying is truth, it makes me very sad to learn that punishment could possibly be assessed not in accordance to the offence magnitude (e.g. for how long I was illegally parked) but by how much somebody likes me. I wonder if judge prefers formal or casual dressing code. And I hope he does not dislike people of Asian origin.

But it is even sadder to learn that my punishment could be increased because of my attempt to defend myself.

You say everything is allowed what is not prohibited by law? Is there a law prohibiting tickets for my tie not matching my shirt? Yes, people in everyday life are permitted to do whatever is not prohibited by law, but is every policeman really permitted to punish for anything he feels like (or anything his “common sense” suggests) unless it’s prohibited?

And what about the Fifth Amendment – I thought nobody can be punished for the same offence twice?

I apologize for the sarcastic tone. I really appreciate your reply. I will do what I find to be the right thing – that is worth more than extra $65 and couple hours of my time. I will go to the hearing, and plead guilty with explanation for the first ticked and plead not guilty for the second one. If judge suggests that it is solely at his discretion if second ticket is upheld or not, I will ask him to refer me to the law permitting to punish me twice for the same offence.

Stay tuned – I’ll post my hearing experiences next week.

John

 

[The Occultist]

And what about the Fifth Amendment – I thought nobody can be punished for the same offence twice?

It's not the same offense. The first offense is for being parked in a no parking zone at 1:46. The second offense is being parked in a no parking zone at 2:45. Completely different offenses.

 

[You Are Guilty]

The truth of the matter is people judge each other all the time and act on those judgments, right or wrong. If one guy walks into the PVB in a suit and a nice folder of defense materials and another walks in dressed in torn sweatpants and a beer-stained tshirt, who do you think is going to be judged more credible when they present their defense?

I'd say for two tickets under an hour apart, you'd have a better than average shot at getting the second dismissed. But at an hour over, those odds go way down (not non-existent, just way down).

If the latter ticket doesn't get dismissed, ask for a settlement (on both tickets). It'll knock ~20% off the fine amount for you just by asking.

PS: I've found the John St PVB office to be faster and more compassionate than the others.

 

[John111]

So, I went to the bureau of violations. After briefly standing in a line to get into the second floor, I got into the second line to the “front desk” or something like that. Once it was my turn, uniformed officer looked at my tickets, didn’t ask me anything, gave me a number and pointed me to another line. At the end of the third line another officer looked at my tickets, also didn’t express much willingness to discuss my situation, gave me couple forms to fill in and directed me the fourth line.

Once I it was my turn, I was called into a cubicle with a casually dressed lady. She looked at the tickets, didn’t ask anything. After a few seconds I started telling my story but after 10 words or so I was interrupted. She said “I’ll reduce the first ticket and dismiss second one as it was in less that three hours after the first”. I asked something like “is there a law permitting only one ticket per three hours?” Answer was “Yes. NEXT!!!”. I realized that it was about the time to leave her cubicle.

At the end of the fifth line another lady accepted my payment.

I have never pleaded either guilty or not guilty. I left both checkboxes blank on both tickets. I have no idea if I saw a clerk, a judge, both or neither. I don’t know the reason of my first ticket reduction. Neither I know which law says “no more than one ticket per 3 hour period”.

I was dressed business casual - black pants and single colour shirt, no tie.

Thanks everyone for your replies and advices.

John

 

[lbro215]

similar thing just happened to me

Exactly 1 hour after I received a parking ticket (after misreading a sign) for parking in a truck standing only zone - you know one of those places in the city where only trucks can park but they still have to pay a meter, I received another. However, the sly new cop that issued the ticket made it a different violation! I read them both and they're practically the same thing! The 2nd cop clearly knew what he was doing! Furthermore, the second ticket is for MORE money! The first was $95 and the second is $115!