Complaint for old debt against me HELP!

[Dinky0128]

What is the name of your state? New Jersey.
I received a summons and complaint in the mail yesterday. The debt was charged off by the creditor. I have been reading and filing out forms to file an answer and have learned that I need to ask them to validate the debt by providing me with the original signed contract.

The amount is for 5100.00 and the original loan was in 2003. It was refinanced but due to financial issues I couldn't do it.

What are my options? I hope I'm saying this properly. I'm a single mom and my daughter is sick and I just found a job in October 2007 after being unemployed for 7 months. So I'm severely behind now as it is. In rent and everything else.

Please help.

 

[helpinpgh]

RE: Complaint

Hi. Not a lawyer, first of all. What is your state? Who is suing you? Did you receive a summons? Is it for the magistrate, or civil court? If civil court, is it in front of a jury, or arbitration? Look up who is suing you on www.budhibbs.com. What does the summons say? Search this sight for 'answering a summons'. There is a lot of good info. You will find out that some people on here are debt collectors, or dc attorneys, and will advise you to call and make some arrangements. Most debt collectors are junk debt buyers. On $5100, it may only cost them under $200 to file. You get scared, don't respond, automatic judgement. If you own nothing, it sounds like you are judgement proof. You should find out if your state allows wage or bank account garnishments. If not, I would say you are judgement proof. One piece of advice I followed in answering a summons can be found here, http://www.attorney-in-alabama.com/not-pay-debt.html. The sworn denial was important, because the DC attorney had to prove that I owed the DC a debt, as well as account for how they calculated the amount. All they had was a sheet of paper saying who the OC was, the date acquired, and the amount due. So, the sworn denial said if it was my debt, then provide the financial instrument between the DC and myself. They had no contract, not even a statement. Even if they had a statement, that doesn't mean anything. They have to prove that I agreed to the terms and conditions of a contract, which was a ghost. It's not fair to use the courts to assure DC's a return of their investment of pennies on a dollar. Also, how old is the debt? When did you last pay on it. You may be past the statute of limitations. Hold up hope, and do your research here and elsewhere. I'm sure a guy name Debt Collector, Chien, maybe even Senior Judge will point out the error of my post. But, I'm actually suing a DC because they broke the law at least 19 times. Suing them in federal court. Even if I walk away with a grand, it's a small victory. Their are rules to play by. Good luck dear, I'll pray for you. Keep your chin up.

 

[Ladynred]

The OP is in NJ if you'd read the post.

The only states that do not allow wage garnishment are PA, NC, SC, and TX, (except for child support, taxes, etc.), so yes, her wages could be garnished.

Original loan in 2003, so the NJ 6 year SOL is NOT expired.

Dinky - asking for validation of the debt once you've been sued is POINTLESS. Prepare your Answer to the Summons in the correct format and get it filed per the instructions within the specified time period in the summons.

For help on how to answer a Complaint, start reading here:
http://www.legalhelp.org/public/answering_complaint.php

If you don't file a proper answer then you will automatically LOSE, but if you admit the debt you're likely to lose anyway. If you want any chance of asking them to prove the debt, then you need to make your answer a general DENIAL, and with luck you'll have a court date where you can ask for proof in person. IF there is a court date, DO NOT blow it off.

You should be prepared to offer a settlement and make some arrangements to pay the debt, otherwise your wages will be garnished, and they'll raid your bank account(s) once they have a judgment.

 

[helpinpgh]

Help Lady in Red

Lady,
Sorry, missed the NJ comment. Can you review my post re: Sued in Civil Court of PA? Tried to send you private message. By the way, what do you think the chances are that a DC suing on debt over 4 years old will have the original contract? Is this common? This poor girl has enough on her plate, I think filing the correct answer will make them back down.

 

[Chien]

Hi. Not a lawyer

Or much of anything else yet. But you do have the potential for damage and that should be recognized by readers.

Sorry. It takes a bit to get me PO’d, but LNR set you straight and helped the OP, so you’re what’s left.

First, we don’t uniformly endorse each other. A small bit of reading before inserting-foot-in-mouth would have shown you that. And even antagonists may agree, despite the fact that you don’t, because they have more knowledge and experience than you. You’re free to express any opinion that the moderators don’t delete before it is challenged, but don’t expect nonsense, especially dangerous nonsense, to go unchallenged. Senior members haven’t devoted a piece of their lives to this to make you feel warm, fuzzy and admired.

Second, not since a former member using the name of GulfBreeze, have I been held accountable for any other member’s opinions, including DC or SJ. That didn’t work out well for the Great Pretender and is not a course that I would recommend emulating. I don’t post unless I think that I have something additional and unique to add so, if you have issues with my posts, take them up with me by way of rebuttal and I’LL respond. Generalize at your own risk.

Let’s start a short list:

If civil court, is it in front of a jury, or arbitration?

A civil proceeding, jury or court is a civil proceeding. An arbitration is an arbitration (and a rose is a rose is a rose). Judges conduct trials, not arbitrations. A court system may order a matter to arbitration or mediation on the possibility that it will resolve a case and preclude the necessity for trial. If they do, the arbitration is non-binding and mediation is always non-binding (unless the parties agree to the contrary – about 1 in 1,000,000). Go learn.

Look up who is suing you on www.budhibbs.com.

I have my own opinions of Budd Hibbs, but whether ‘ol Budd likes your plaintiff or not, it doesn’t say squat about the merit of the claim. Go learn.

Most debt collectors are junk debt buyers.

That may be the first time that I have seen that assertion made as a simple, declaratory statement, even here. Unless you think that less than 5% of the ARM industry equals “most”, go learn. I know of the practice, but I don’t know any JDBs, and I’ve been a creditors’ rights practitioner for 30 years. DC has acknowledged having a personal judgment portfolio, as do I, but that’s a difference you apparently don’t understand. Go learn.

They have to prove that I agreed to the terms and conditions of a contract, which was a ghost.

Let’s go back to your JDBs. Mine is a commercial practice, but I consult for four retail agencies. If any of them decided to sue you, they would immediately “paper” you with so many invoices and billing statements that you would feel as if a healthcare or bank loan piñata exploded or your head. You’d never survive discovery, and the cost of a summary judgment would be added to what you owe. And each employee is required to pass a FDCPA compliance test before picking up a phone and to re-pass quarterly at not less than 90%. They don’t get sued.

This is boring. What angers me is that members like you, who don’t read, don’t learn and believe that your miniscule experience is universal, post as if it was universal. Post as if what you say applies to the rest and the rest can depend on it. They can’t and shouldn’t. You’ve posted a short time, and I had no reason to take umbrage. I bear you no animus but, when you post without thinking or having made an effort to know, I will call you, if others don’t. Instead of this weaseling little “I'm sure a guy name Chien will point out the error of my post.”, you’re invited to do the same, when you think that you can and the appendage in your mouth doesn’t interfere with typing.

The OP does have a lot on her plate. That's why she needs sound advice. Well . . . ?

 

[Ladynred]

By the way, what do you think the chances are that a DC suing on debt over 4 years old will have the original contract?

Slim to none, especially if it's been sold and passed around thru several agencies. Even with the initial sale to a junk debt buyer, the ORIGINAL papers don't go with the account - they get a data dump, with certain details and no supporting documentation. However, they don't HAVE to have the original contract to prove the debt in court. All they have to have is a 'preponderance of evidence' to convince a judge and then you lose.

 

[TigerD]

LNR - Media is increasingly being provided on accounts, far more than even 5 years ago. I wouldn't consider it a sure thing that the collector or collection attorney doesn't have a copy of the contract.

DC

 

[Dinky0128]

Thank you

You guys are great! I have the answer all prepared already and I know where to send it. I denied debt as unknown to defendant. My only thing is I can attach the notice to produce or request to documents with my original filing. My other hope is that the attorney's office who filed is lazy and that will buy me a couple more months.

I've also been looking into grants for single mothers. I do get child support but you know with rent and a car payment and the bare necessities it's really hard to keep up. I'm not complaining. I made the mess, I'm cleaning it up. January of this year they repossessed my car. Which was due to my not working and falling behind. That's a long story but fortunately I got my instant refund. What stunk was I had it planned to pay all the arrears that saturday when I got the refund. They took it 4 days prior. Which ... you know, I accepted that. I had sent a payment they didn't cash and tried to make arrangements but every time I'd call they would badger me. Now, why tell me they can make arrangements for some kind of lower payments etc., and then badger me when I call for the full amount? How does that work?

Hey? Does anyone know how to work with an auto loan, other than refinancing to reduce the payments? That would be cool. A grant would be better. I could clean up my old debt and pay off my car and not have to worry about upcoming medical expenses for my daughter. She's 10.5 yrs old and she has a bulging disc in her back. Which means physical therapy, and orthopedists etc., so it's going to start rolling in. All those medical bills.

Back to the topic ... They do wage garnishments and judgments in New Jersey and I have another site as well which advises what they can and cannot take from your personal belongings. They can do that as well. ugh... But there are things that are exempt from being taken. A big list. If anyone here would like this link I can dig it out and give it to all of you. It sure appeased my mind as to what they can take.

Yes they can levy a bank account too. I know. I'm going to ask my bosses to have my checks "not" direct deposited anymore. I answer those interrogatories they send you with my bank information and I'm just setting myself up for a levy. So my thought process is I'll go and cash the check and then do money orders. Just until I clear this up. You know? That way I won't have a surprise one day and can't get any of my money. Can you just imagine "maybe" getting caught up and then that happening? oh my god. I'm thoroughly freaked. I don't have the money to make payments ... I'm hoping that I can get a grant. One site I found said that the people got one in like 2 weeks. Wow that would be amazing wouldn't it? I'd be so relieved. I would pay everything off. I could start fresh. A little bit anyway.

This site has private messaging too? Oh I didn't realize that. How cool!

The complaint says, in answer to your question (sorry I know I'm rambling) that it's through this other company. It lists this other company then a/p/o citifinancial. What is a/p/o? Does anyone know? I'm sorry I"m burying my questions in here. I've been doing so much research and running around to get my daughter seen for her back, I've been a bit ... overwhelmed. I can do this. I can take care of all of these things, I know I can... I'm just in need of a little bit of help right now.

The debt has already been charged off. I got my credit reports this morning. (messy things they are LOL ... so not funny. But you know, for now this is how things are.) I know the SOL hasn't run I checked that too. See ... I know I messed up. And these things hang over you head and remind you that you messed up. The thing is as you start to rebuild and I'm not a pessimist by far, something else comes up or happens and it sends you smack in the other direction.

You are very nice (all of you) I really appreciate the help.

You know, when I was a kid ... if I may share a story ... I've never been good with money. They sent credit cards, I thought OH GOODIE! LOL ... and then racked up the debt. Paid it all off.

And you know, kept away from that, used cash or a debit card. Got a couple cards w/low amounts on them. All total in cards is about 2k in credit card debt. I mean that's small peanuts compared the mess I made in my early to mid 20's. I kept asking myself, what am I doing? How can I fix this... but you know, it just seems sometimes that everytime I get to a point where I can breath ... something else happens. I realize that this particular situation is something that I created. I realize that sometimes we can't do what we intend to and of course we're accountable/responsible for these things. I acknowledge mistakes I"ve made in the past ... I accept all these things.

Yet... I have such an issue with trying as hard as I have in the past few years ... and you know, kids have needs, or I needed a new car, got a used one 2002 which is very nice and then now something else is happening, and I'd lost a really good paying job that I had looked for previously and it's so weird, like I was so sick while I was there and they let me go. I went in, except for the severe ear infection... Some days, it just feel like ... I can't ever catch up. And I'm not lazy either.

I've been working at it. Imagine how much research and digging I did just to find this site? I think this is a great site. And ... hey? Who would I ask to put this on mine?

I help other people myself. All the time, day in and day out. So... is there an administrator here that I could ask permission to post this site within my own network? I think this is something that people really need. I'm personally grateful for the responses. I'd forgotten I posted here today.

So, are life stories included here ? agh... Hey, I'll check back tomorrow. Thanx for reading and responding. I TOTALLY AND THOROUGHLY APPRECIATE IT LOTS!

Dinky.

p.s. My dad used to call me Dinky when I was kid. Thought that would be a cute thing to share.

 

[Dinky0128]

Response : Chien

I hit the quote button here below. I"m not sure how that will show up. Chein would you guide me accordingly? I've been looking things up all day, yesterday as well. I have so much information right now it's coming out of my ears.

I have the courts website and all the proceedures but they're not very debtor friendly. They only give you the bare basics of course as to the procedure. Would I like to avoid this mess? Yes ... very much so. Would I like to find a resolution so I can breath? Very much so again, that's for sure. I mentioned in my last post I keep trying, I keep restructuring and rebudgeting etc., and you know... we make mistakes. We have to work them out.

I know that. I still very much appreciate everyone's input.

Or much of anything else yet. But you do have the potential for damage and that should be recognized by readers.

Sorry. It takes a bit to get me PO’d, but LNR set you straight and helped the OP, so you’re what’s left.

First, we don’t uniformly endorse each other. A small bit of reading before inserting-foot-in-mouth would have shown you that. And even antagonists may agree, despite the fact that you don’t, because they have more knowledge and experience than you. You’re free to express any opinion that the moderators don’t delete before it is challenged, but don’t expect nonsense, especially dangerous nonsense, to go unchallenged. Senior members haven’t devoted a piece of their lives to this to make you feel warm, fuzzy and admired.

Second, not since a former member using the name of GulfBreeze, have I been held accountable for any other member’s opinions, including DC or SJ. That didn’t work out well for the Great Pretender and is not a course that I would recommend emulating. I don’t post unless I think that I have something additional and unique to add so, if you have issues with my posts, take them up with me by way of rebuttal and I’LL respond. Generalize at your own risk.

Let’s start a short list:

A civil proceeding, jury or court is a civil proceeding. An arbitration is an arbitration (and a rose is a rose is a rose). Judges conduct trials, not arbitrations. A court system may order a matter to arbitration or mediation on the possibility that it will resolve a case and preclude the necessity for trial. If they do, the arbitration is non-binding and mediation is always non-binding (unless the parties agree to the contrary – about 1 in 1,000,000). Go learn.


I have my own opinions of Budd Hibbs, but whether ‘ol Budd likes your plaintiff or not, it doesn’t say squat about the merit of the claim. Go learn.


That may be the first time that I have seen that assertion made as a simple, declaratory statement, even here. Unless you think that less than 5% of the ARM industry equals “most”, go learn. I know of the practice, but I don’t know any JDBs, and I’ve been a creditors’ rights practitioner for 30 years. DC has acknowledged having a personal judgment portfolio, as do I, but that’s a difference you apparently don’t understand. Go learn.


Let’s go back to your JDBs. Mine is a commercial practice, but I consult for four retail agencies. If any of them decided to sue you, they would immediately “paper” you with so many invoices and billing statements that you would feel as if a healthcare or bank loan piñata exploded or your head. You’d never survive discovery, and the cost of a summary judgment would be added to what you owe. And each employee is required to pass a FDCPA compliance test before picking up a phone and to re-pass quarterly at not less than 90%. They don’t get sued.

This is boring. What angers me is that members like you, who don’t read, don’t learn and believe that your miniscule experience is universal, post as if it was universal. Post as if what you say applies to the rest and the rest can depend on it. They can’t and shouldn’t. You’ve posted a short time, and I had no reason to take umbrage. I bear you no animus but, when you post without thinking or having made an effort to know, I will call you, if others don’t. Instead of this weaseling little “I'm sure a guy name Chien will point out the error of my post.”, you’re invited to do the same, when you think that you can and the appendage in your mouth doesn’t interfere with typing.

The OP does have a lot on her plate. That's why she needs sound advice. Well . . . ?

 

[Dinky0128]

Link Was Rerouted

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre27.pdf

Some one above gave this link above here. There is a new one that you are redirected to above here. So I thought I'd include it.

I was reading it this morning and it has the symbols for NY in the statutes. Are these still applicable laws in New Jersey? Like New Jersey Statutes have things like Rule 2:4 plah... these have statutes labeld with ... I don't know how to put it. It looks like 2 S's intertwined. Sorry I can't remember what it's called.

Anyway, I'm following it but I'm not following it. I have my answer here, all prepared and I saved it on the computer I have 33 days left to file it. Noted it for 28 we don't need to actually fan the flames by doing something dumb and defaulting.

My question is do I ask them in my response to validate the loan? I'm a little/lot confused. Thank you!

 

[Dinky0128]

Here is the other link about validation

In my searches yesterday (research) I found this site and there was a suggestion made to ask for validation of the debt. I'm unclear on this. I will ask for it but I'm not sure if they can't provide it, since it was charged off, if the case would actually get dismissed.

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/advice/t-53686.html

I cut and pasted (for your ease, who ever sees this) the text from the site so you didn't have to go back and forth.

"1. The only validation is your ORIGINAL signed copy of the credit card application. If he doesn't have that the court will throw out the case.

2. Yes, you send him a request for discovery, you file a copy with the court. (what did you tell him about using the Net and what was his response?)

3. Yes.

4. No, send him a notice that you consider the documentation provided insufficient to validate that you owe this debt and you expect the court to throw out the suit.


Gee, thanks so much

Well to answer your question. He was just basically like I don't know where you got your information from the net or something. It appears that he wanted to continue but dropped it.
I never responded.

So, I will request discovery and send a copy to the courts...is there a certain way one has to request discovery?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

noluckJan 10, 2007, 01:18 PM
File Notice of intend to defend with the court.

Than file discovery with the attorney to produce the original contract which you signed. Remember no contract, no claim.

What is the bill of sale he is speaking of? Did he purchase this debt? Is he did what price did he pay. Attorney cannot purchase debt than try to collect.

Hi,

Well I already filed an answer and the court date is in March. When he received my answer he wrote back stating that my 30 days has passed for him to validate debt. However he did send me a print out of some itemized bill. All it has was my new address, ss # amount owed.
Bill of sale? I dont know. Apparently he couldn't even tell me what it was....I can't wait to see.
I like your questions. I will directly ask him that to see if I can get a full answer. For now all I know is that His client is a Collection company and we spoke of settlements he said, I will have to contact my client because it is up to them. So I think the collection company brought the debt and assigned it to the lawyer."

Is this something that is an option for me? Since it's so old would this be applicable?
In my case that is.

 

[helpinpgh]

Re: Chien

Not to drag out a fight here. I think LNR tactfully pointed out I missed the state in the post. She also pointed out to the OP that debt validation is too late. So, I guess she set me straight. Also, I mentioned the three of you specifically, because you do post a lot, and would correct anything that I said that may be wrong. How could that be taken personally? If something I said was wrong, than correct it, right? I'm going to say that you and LNR especially offer good, unbiased advice. But, for flaming me, here's some food for thought.

As far as 'papering' before arbitration, this attorney for the DC has given me exhibit A, stating who the OC was, date purchased, and amount. No invoices, nothing. Give me all of the invoices you want, prove that there is a binding contract that shows what the terms of payment are. Show me where I signed for goods, saying I agreed to pay. Show me how you calculated what you claim I owe. You can't say I agreed to pay, without the legal agreement. How do you get around saying otherwise? BTW, the sworn affadavit says I agreed to purchase the goods and pay for them to the plaintiff, which is the DC. Ok, show me a DC that extends credit cards to people?

Junk debt buyers aren't a big % of CA's? Hmm. That's why I've had debts bought/sold numerous times after DV letters go out. Gee, have all of this media electronically? Why sell my debt, prove it's mine? Putting the fear of God into people serves you well sometimes. That's why so many people are chasing debt past statutues. Or breaking FDCPA laws by posting incorrect DOLA, in order to reset their 'claim'. Or threatening legal action, when no action is ever intended. Or sending letters from law offices, signed by a 'collection administrator'?

Also, civil court matters in PA include arbitration, and jury trials. Handled differently. Sure, I'm no pro. That's why I said research arbitration, protect your bank, and check out Bud to see what the DC is up to. Also explaining that doing nothing hurts was solid advice. I also posted a link to responding to a suit, and LNR's was waaaay better than mine, I saved it. I'll copy the nice fat check from my DC lawsuit for you when I get it, kind of a junk debt buyer bounty.

 

[Ladynred]

If you want more helpful info on validation of debts, go to www.creditinfocenter.com, LOTS of information there AND a forum full of very helpful people, many of whom have been in your situation.

There's also a few threads in the forum on what to do once you've been sued.

 

[Debt Guy]

Dinky

You are making yourself nuts with all this conflicting advice you are getting from all over the net. Let me say that there is some good information out there -- a lot of really bad information -- and a ton of stuff that is just flat confusing.

Let me try to sort out some things for you.

1. You have been sued. As LNR pointed out, requesting validation at this time is pointless. You need to deal with your issues in the courtroom.

2. You have filed your answer. Right? As best I can sort out from all the back and forth in the thread, you filed a general denial. You need to mail a copy of your answer to the attorney for the plaintiff and then file a mailing affidavit with the court. Read the summons and complaint you received and look at the way it is formatted -- somewhere at the bottom of one of the pages will be a mailing affidavit -- use that as a go-by.

3. OK. Your next step is to conduct discovery. Different states have different rules. You need to call the Court Clerk and ask for a copy of the local rules of civil procedure. They will either give it to you or tell you how to get it online. Read it. Also, some courts have available fill-in-the-blank forms for basic issues. Ask the Court Clerk.

4. You need to file a Request for Admissions, Interrogatories and Documents. It sounds hard but it really is not. The problem is that you don't have a sample to use as a go-by. Ask the court clerk for a sample -- I don't know what you will get.

Most likely, once the Plaintiff receives your Answer, they will file and send you a Request for Admissions, Interrogatories and Documents. If so, you can use theirs as a sample to prepare your Request for them. Much of the document will be "boiler-plate" language -- that means standardized text for defining terms and referencing the appropriate sections of state law that require response, etc. It is OK to use their boiler-plate. Everything else -- the admissions and the interrogatories and the document request you can modify to ask for documents, agreements, etc.

In addition to preparing your request for A, I & D for them, you must prepare a response to theirs.

Admissions are always answered 'ADMIT' OR 'DENY' or sometimes a lawyerly "DEFENDANT IS WITHOUT SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE TO ADMIT OR DENY -- which is what you use instead of saying "I don't know".

A sample admission would be:

ADMISSION 1: Admit that Defendant is a member of the Human Race.

When you prepare your response you would say:

ADMISSION 1: Admitted.

See how it goes?

Now, realistically, you need to be careful with how you answer admissions. For example, a common Admission is:

ADMISSION 1: Admit that Defendant is indebted to Plaintiff for credit card # 1234.

If you say admitted -- then game over. You need to answer Denied.

Some defendants are reluctant to say Denied if they know they owe the debt out of a concern they would be lying to the court if they say Denied. Well, that is not what denied means in the context of an Admission. It only means "I want strict proof of everything as is my legal right"

OK. At this point I am probably confusing you. Lets take a break on Admissions and let you absorb all that.

Interrogatories are slightly different. Interrogatories are "requests for information". For example,

INTERROGATORY 1 -- State the name, position and address of every person at XYZ Bank who has personal knowledge of the alleged debt.

Or, state the name and address of every person XYZ will produce at trial to testify as to their personal knowledge of the alleged debt.

Requests for documents are different yet. This is the "guts" of what you are asking the plaintiff to produce to prove their case. If you don't ask for it, they don't have to produce it.

For example,

Request 1 -- Provide certified copies of all correspondence, letters, statements, collection notices and demands from Original Creditor Bank to Defendant.

Or Provide a complete historical record of all debits and credits and reconciliation of the amount claimed.

Now, you don't know what the Plaintiff will be able to provide as "proof". Sometimes they will be able to cough up all the statements since God was a child. Sometimes the best they can do is an affidavit from someone from either the Plaintiff or the Original Creditor as to the account.

If they try to deal with this as an affidavit, you must challenge it on the basis of "does the person signing the affidavit have personal knowledge of the account" and then dig in your feet. If necessary, you insist that that person appear personally to testify in court.

As you can see, I am not a lawyer. I am merely speaking from the thousands of documents that I have seen -- although none from NJ -- but the theory is the same.

Offering advice of this nature and detail is not my history. I guess I feel sympathetic for your situation and think you need a break. I don't like people who try to dodge paying their bills just because they think they can game the system. I hope that I am not making an error in judgment here.


PS -- ignore helpinpgh -- big talker little doer less knowledge than they think -- take all the advice you can get from Chien -- ladynred has her heart in the right place but is sometimes blinded by her revulsion for collectors