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Dui - the video evidence

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witzeroni

Member
question

Carl -
You make good sense - I can tell you know what you are talking about. Here's the thing - my lawyer hasn't seen the video in a few months, and there is no way I would allow him to get into trouble for something I do. What I am thinking about doing is watching the video with him 1 more time when I bring the video to him to present to the prosecutor. If he sees it and says something about the audio, then I would tell him what I did. But there is no way he would allow me to do that. I think a lot of prosecutors and lawyers are somewhat clueless unless it comes to what they deal with on a day to day basis. I think that even if he (the prosecutor) had suspicion that the video was edited, he would not know what to do about it. Also, if I wrote on the case of the DVD, that it is my copy and for viewing purposes only, I don't know if he can do anything. You have to remember - this is Cook County - where prosecutors feel they are overburdened to begin wiht.
 


CavemanLawyer

Senior Member
It does not matter whether this is "your" copy of the video. It is a video of the actual alleged crime. That is by definition evidence of that crime. Tampering is destroying or altering evidence with the intent to impair its availability at trial, knowing that it is evidence. This is about as literal an example of a tampering charge that I've heard. If you do this you are absolutely committing a felony.

It is bizarre that the prosecutor would want your copy but hardly unheard of. When I was a prosecutor I had to subpoena the defense's copy of the DWI video on more than one occasion. Some PD's recycle the videos after a certain number of days, destroying the original, and this is almost the norm when dealing with surveillance video from stores. Video's at the DA's office get lost all the time. Occasionally the defense gets their copy and the State loses theirs, and the original is destroyed. Since it is evidence, ANYONE, even an unrelated third party, must turn it over to either the State or the defense if it is subpoenaed, and if it is the defense that has the only copy than all the State has to do is get the judge to order it as discovery. Criminal discovery is incredibly broad. Even if your buddy in the passenger seat was filming the DWI field sobriety tests himself, if the prosecutor found out about it he/she could subpoena it as evidence and your buddy would be forced to turn it over. To destroy it knowing that there was an investigation would also be tampering.

There was a recent criminal case in my jurisdiction against a defense attorney who allegedly destroyed a DWI video after the State subpoenaed it when they lost their only copy. He was charged with tampering and it went to the Grand Jury and he appeared with the tape. (he had previously said that he accidentally destroyed it.) The charges were no billed but now he has a contempt hearing looming and I imagine he will be at least sanctioned by the bar, and possibly disbarred.

In short, YES of course it is tampering. You are trying to alter evidence to make it less useful against you. If you are caught than your possible DWI probation is going to turn into definite pen time.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
I find it hard to believe a copy of evidence is evidence unless one were to introduce it in court as such. I'm not quite interested enough to research the question, but think of the practical issues of introduction.

Say the DA gets a copy of the tape from the defendant's attorney and tries to introduce it.

Defense Attorney: "Objection, lack of foundation."

So, we then get to have a chain of custody foundation to build which could include the defense attorney and the defendant. After they get the technician to testify that he made a true and correct copy and the secretary placed it in the mail properly or delivered it to the DA...well you get the idea. Then the real problem(s) of the defense attorney can be gotten around, but the defendant? "Ahh...I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me."

Now, having a defendant testify that when his attorney gave him the copy of the tape to review he kept it in a secure place and didn't tamper with it may not be testifying against oneself, but I bet we'd go through some appeals before getting there.

For a drunk driving?
 

CavemanLawyer

Senior Member
I find it hard to believe a copy of evidence is evidence unless one were to introduce it in court as such. I'm not quite interested enough to research the question, but think of the practical issues of introduction.

Say the DA gets a copy of the tape from the defendant's attorney and tries to introduce it.

Defense Attorney: "Objection, lack of foundation."

So, we then get to have a chain of custody foundation to build which could include the defense attorney and the defendant. After they get the technician to testify that he made a true and correct copy and the secretary placed it in the mail properly or delivered it to the DA...well you get the idea. Then the real problem(s) of the defense attorney can be gotten around, but the defendant? "Ahh...I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me."

Now, having a defendant testify that when his attorney gave him the copy of the tape to review he kept it in a secure place and didn't tamper with it may not be testifying against oneself, but I bet we'd go through some appeals before getting there.

For a drunk driving?
Of course its evidence. It is a video of of the officer's investigation of the alleged crime immediately after it happened and immediately before arrest. Its GREAT evidence. It doesn't matter who is in possession of it, how they got it, or whether there are additional copies. It truly doesn't matter whether it is admissible in court or not. Evidence is anything that could potentially be probative, and the absolute first step in determining admissibility is gaining possession of the evidence so that it can be inspected...which is why the State has a right to it if the defense has the only copy left. They have a right to it because it is evidence, because they need it to determine its admissibility, and because they need it to evaluate all of their other evidence.

Something isn't turned into evidence by being admitted in trial. If that were the case no one could ever be guilty of tampering unless they ripped up the exhibit after it was introduced in court. The whole point of a tampering charge is that the person altered or destroyed the evidence specifically so that it couldn't be admit in trial.

I think maybe you mean that the video is not the best evidence, which is an evidentiary issue but if the original and all other copies are missing than the defense's copy IS the best evidence.

As far as proving up the predicate and admitting it in trial, that is not at all how it works. You never prove up the predicate for a copy, you prove up the predicate for the original, even if it doesn't exist anymore, and then you establish that the copy is true and accurate to the original. You almost never admit the original tape in a DWI trial, you admit the State's copy. The officer testifies that the original was filmed on a device capable of making accurate recordings and that the operator was competent. Then he testifies that he has viewed the copy prior to testifying and that it is a true and accurate copy of the original. He would do the exact same with the defense's copy if it was the only one available. Copies are frequently admitted over originals and this is true regardless of what generation copy it is. Think about any certified document like a judgment. The original copy is in a warehouse somewhere. They scanned that into their computer and they print you off a copy. You now have a 3rd generation copy, but they put the seal on it and that verifies that it is a true and accurate copy and it is now self authenticating in trial. Many clerk's offices have copies which are a copy of a copy times 100. It doesn't matter because they are all certified copies of the original, including the copy they give you which is the 100th generation copy.

As a prosecutor I admit the defense's copy of evidence in trial many times. Sometimes I had to fight to get it because our original was lost or damaged, other times I did it just to make it easier, (ex: did agreed redactions and made them a copy to review and then admit that copy so that they knew the redactions were correct).

The bottom line is that if you look at something and say to yourself, "this might influence a jury's decision even sightly," than that is evidence.
 
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Shay-Pari'e

Senior Member
Good question about why the prosecutor wants to see my copy - I guess because the police officer has his and only brings that when we have to meet in court. I know that they won't rely on my copy in court, but perhaps it may not have to go there if I plea to reckless.
Here's my background. I live in Crook (Cook) county Illinois. I have 1 prior DUI (12 years ago) in the state of Ohio while I lived in Cook County. I fought that and lost (got a conviction - no supervision). I then stopped drinking for almost 8 years. I now have 4 kids - I have a good job (I always have) and if I get convicted now I will lose my license for a MINIMUM of 5 years and the fees are outrageous (I only work, my wife doesn't) so we pretty much live paycheck to paycheck.
What really angers me is how unfair the system is (cops, firemen will only get pinched if there is a fatality involved) - but that is another story.
I have no idea what you are even saying here.
The Temptation is incredible - I really wish the prosecutor would look at the cops dvd - then I wouldn't be going thru this.
And they will, so why change it if you are so confident?
I try to live a good, Christian life, but have made some mistakes when it comes to drinking. While I know what I may do is unethical, I also believe the fines the state imposes is unethical. I made a bad mistake, but nobody was hurt.
Christian,and unethical, endangering others, is not even close to being Christian. If you were a true Christian, you would not be saying that the punishment does not fit the crime. STOP using the fact that you are a so called Christian, that is pathetic.


and I just want an answer from somebody who knows the law when it comes with the charge of tampering with evidence, which is a felony.
Oh Goody! A easy question. The answer is prison

.Can it apply to me here even if they are stupid enough to look at my dvd, and can they even try to keep my own dvd as evidence if they have suspisions that it was modified or wouldn't they need to jump thru a bunch of hoops just to do that???
Don't worry, they only want your copy. How you got it, is amazing, but not to worry. They will treat your video with very special gloves.
 

witzeroni

Member
Caveman Lawyer

You are very convincing and logical. Thanks for that. I did not go through with it. I don't think it would have been found out, but there was too much at risk - and I still wasn't guaranteed of a reckless with the edited video. Here's my question now - as stated if I am convicted of this it is conviction number 2. My first was 12 years ago in Ohio, and for some reason I got a conviction instead of the supervision which is almost automatic for a first. Is there anything I can do about the fact that on my first I wasn't given supervision? Kind of doubt it - but there's some people that know what they're talking about - and it seems like my lawyer is kind of clueless, but I couldn't afford a high priced attorney - especially when this will probably end up in a conviction?
 

CavemanLawyer

Senior Member
By supervision I assume you mean probation. Probation is still pretty common for even a second DWI, especially if your first was so long ago. But you can probably expect some amount of jail time as a condition of probation. It may be like 5 days or so, it just depends.
 

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