Mandatory Attendance Legal?

[nrobi]

What is the name of your state? MA

I was in for a surprise today as I sat down for my exam in my anatomy and physiology course at a community college. The teacher asked to see me in private, told me I had missed too many classes and asked me to leave as he apparently put in the paperwork for an instructor withdrawal the week prior. Today is one week prior to the end of the semester.

I'm a little confused. A few years back I missed one too many days in a class that had a mandatory attendance policy. I was depressed and felt horrible. I went through my routine for the week in my little cave before I withdrew from the class myself. Then I decided to check my voice mail and there was my professor trying to work something out because my grades were good.

This last semester I had a discussion with some of the nursing professors regarding punctuality because I had a hard time adapting to a new daily schedule. This was brought on by three instances of being 15-25 minutes late. In this instance I understand the magnitude of the problem because the program requires so many hours of clinical time. If students somehow progressed without the required amount the program would be in jeopardy when it was audited at some point. In this discussion one of the professors had requested as part of the solution that my attendance be required at all lectures. Another professor said this could not be required of me but for clinical it could..... even though it is stated in the syllabus that a student can only miss one lecture.

I never really wanted to "test the waters" in my A&P class but it seemed to me this was more of a guideline than a black and white rule. So I missed one class in A&P early on that was planned so I could study for a nursing exam. Nothing was said. I later missed one because I didn't check the schedule and took the wrong Sunday off for spring break. Nothing was said.... I'm now one day over the limit. Last week I over slept by 2 3/4 hours and figured whats the point of going in for the last 30-45 minutes. Granted none of these are worthy reasons to miss a class. That's two days over the limit and the first thing that was said to me was as I sat down for my exam this morning.

But the reason I'm confused is that I had a potential 'A' for the end of the semester and definitely an 'A-'. My academic performance was not affected. Luckily there is the policy one lecture exam will be dropped so it is still possible for me to receive an 'A' and I'm confident I will be at least an 'A-'. Not only was my performance not affected, I most likely have the highest grade in the class.

In addition he felt as though I "nickeled and dimed" the class. I'm not sure if that is a reference to the fact I'm not very well off financially at all and could not purchase all the books I needed for the semester. Or because I value any potential point that could be awarded to me or the class. No matter how hard you study you never know what your next grade will be. One point could be the difference between a 0.3/0.4 GPA increment. So in the hopes a getting more points I would bring up ambiguities in some questions.

I don't see how his action served anyone. I never asked for extra time outside of regular class hours, there are no assignments due in class to makeup. I paid for his class time like everyone else, as well as to be evaluated just like everyone else. I would've gotten one of the higher grades if all the sections he taught were combined into one class for this semester.

Not only does this matter itself concern me, but what supersedes it is how this affects my status in the nursing program. This class is suppose to be a pre-/co-requisite to my current nursing class. Having an instructor withdrawal in A&P automatically will create the same in my nursing class. This essentially hits the "reset" button on my nursing education at this college and I'll have to restart that program from scratch... and I would've had an A!!!

I'm going to speak with some people in the college tomorrow but I don't understand the reasoning behind the action. I thought teachers were there to help you learn.... if one is already getting an 'A' how much more can you learn in a course that is essentially memorization?

Can I sue for the cost of education in this timeframe? I obviously was going to pass, is this not some form of damage to me? Once I entered the "grey zone" shouldn't some limit have been set that I should have been told?

I read through a few posts (more pertaining to high school). Please do not compare this to job truancy. That is a different matter. I have "employed" the college for its services. At a job they have employed me for mine.

 

[justalayman]

without dessecting your psot and answering line for line: if you did not follow the rules provided to you, then you are subject to the actions taken as a result.

From what I read, you would have no action available as it is your fault you are in this boat. You cannot use prior actions (especially since they were in other classes with different instructors) as a basis of what this instructor should have done.

the nickle and dime comment: I would suggest he felt you only put enough effort in the class as ou absolutely had to. The same as reapairing a car nickel sna diming it all the way. You don't really fix the car, you merely fix what it takes to get you by.

Speak with the dean of the department to see if youhave any options that would help you. Other than that, you do not seem to have any other help available.

Oh, and no, they did not have to hold you hand and tell you you were breaking the rules and what may happen. You are an adult and they simply treated you as an adult that needs to take responsibility for themselves. They are there to teach, not babysit.

 

[ErinGoBragh]

You may actually want to check with the college about attendance policies. A few years ago there was a nursing class at my college; they were to be graded only on the final exam, so that's all the students went to. They all passed the final but received and F in the class due to lack of attendance; they threatened to sue and all walked away with As.

After that the college did away with attendance policies; some teachers still use them even though technically this is not allowed, but they still get called out on it once in a while.

If your college has no such policy however, you may be up a certain creek without a paddle.

 

[justalayman]

You may actually want to check with the college about attendance policies. A few years ago there was a nursing class at my college; they were to be graded only on the final exam, so that's all the students went to. They all passed the final but received and F in the class due to lack of attendance; they threatened to sue and all walked away with As.

After that the college did away with attendance policies; some teachers still use them even though technically this is not allowed, but they still get called out on it once in a while.

If your college has no such policy however, you may be up a certain creek without a paddle.

is this state specific? I also noticed they did not actually sue so the school caved. That does not mean they would not have won.

 

[ErinGoBragh]

It's New York, and not state specific that I know of. I say this more because I think that OP should investigate the specific policies of the college- there was no school-wide attendance policy then, and now in place the only school-wide attendance policy says that you cannot be failed on attendance alone! (This does not mean that teacher cannot assign homework everyday and fail you for not turning that in though, or give pop quizzes, etc).

You're also correct, it never made it as far as a lawsuit. They retained an attorney and that's about all that it took.

 

[Perky]

If I ever need medical care, I pray that I will have the services of a nurse who attended all of the classes, and put all of the required effort into the program.

At the college level, attendance policies are often left to the professor. However, even in situations where the actual absences can't count against you, you can lose credit by not participating in class. Participation in class should be a determining part of any course grade, IMO.

 

[justalayman]

well, in Indiana and Michigan both, I have attended college classes and attendance could be used as a determining factor. While you may want to claim it cannot be utilized as such, as perroloco states, lack of attendance can be used against you, if not directly, by simply performing a simple quiz each class period and using that as a huge part of your grade.

sample quiz

What is your name?___________

are you here?_________________

50 points for each question. requires 100% to pass.

 

[Perky]

sample quiz

What is your name?___________

are you here?_________________

50 points for each question. requires 100% to pass.

HAHAHA! That was good, and actually a little like the last graduate class I took, except the prof made a notation of whether or not we contributed to the discussion!

 

[nrobi]

If I ever need medical care, I pray that I will have the services of a nurse who attended all of the classes, and put all of the required effort into the program.

At the college level, attendance policies are often left to the professor. However, even in situations where the actual absences can't count against you, you can lose credit by not participating in class. Participation in class should be a determining part of any course grade, IMO.

I've only missed one day out of the two semesters of nursing classes I've taken. This class is one of 10 pre/co-reqs and not considered part of the accredited program. I partly agree with your opinion but I feel it depends on the class. This is a science class where the facts have been established long ago, it isn't one of discussion or thought. Answering questions in class proves the same thing as me answering them on a test.... I know the material.

the nickle and dime comment: I would suggest he felt you only put enough effort in the class as ou absolutely had to. The same as reapairing a car nickel sna diming it all the way. You don't really fix the car, you merely fix what it takes to get you by.

Well he would be correct. This is essentialy the 5th A&P class I've taken. Unfortunately none of them were college level.... except my AP Biology/A&P class I took in 1994 as a senior in high school where I received a 5/5. That was transfered to my WPI transcript as a generic biology credit and any specifics to what class it was was lost. If putting the minimum effort forth yields an 'A' what is the point of more? I can't go beyond on 'A'. My nursing classes are much more difficult than this class.

Speak with the dean of the department to see if youhave any options that would help you. Other than that, you do not seem to have any other help available.

I'm headed there tomorrow. As soon as I leave my nursing exam.

They are there to teach, not babysit.

Knowing a limit after already having exceeding the one that was written down would've been useful. That's all I meant, secondary to the fact I was getting an 'A' solely from my studying off the Powerpoints. What more can be taught?

Ironic... isn't a mandatory attendance policy in a class of this type (facts, no thought or discussion) just that.... babysitting?

This all makes complete sense to me if I was struggling, the outcome unsure. But that was far from the case.

Thanks for your comments

 

[stealth2]

Ya know... part of being a professional ANYTHING is actually caring about the area you plan to work in and showing respect for those who are to teach you. That doesn't mean just the "relevant" (i.e. for you - nursing) classes, but also the OTHER classes required to graduate. You showed blatant disregard and disrespect for the instructor of your A&P class (and btw - Anatomy & physiology ARE relevant to nursing) by blowing off a bunch of classes. Nor does your repeated tardiness for classes how a great deal of commitment.

I'd suggest sucking it up and retaking the classes you need to take (and showing a bit more integrity) or finding a new field that fits your lifestyle a bit better.

 

[justalayman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justalayman
the nickle and dime comment: I would suggest he felt you only put enough effort in the class as ou absolutely had to. The same as reapairing a car nickel sna diming it all the way. You don't really fix the car, you merely fix what it takes to get you by.

Well he would be correct. This is essentialy the 5th A&P class I've taken. Unfortunately none of them were college level.... except my AP Biology/A&P class I took in 1994 as a senior in high school where I received a 5/5. That was transfered to my WPI transcript as a generic biology credit and any specifics to what class it was was lost. If putting the minimum effort forth yields an 'A' what is the point of more? I can't go beyond on 'A'. My nursing classes are much more difficult than this class.

There is so much more to taking a class besides a grade, even if it is an A.

I could whip off A's in many classes but that does not mean I have really learned anything. It is often a simple matter to understand what an instructor is looking for and fulfilling that and nothing but that. It does not mean you learned what was taught in the class.

Most instructors do see this. Some allow it, some don't. Apparently yours doesn't.

Answering questions in class proves the same thing as me answering them on a test.... I know the material.

Not true. It merely means you know the answer. Knowing the answer to a question does not mean you understand what that answer means. A savant in math can do amazing calculations but that does not mean they understand anything about the problem they are solving. There merely can calculate the answer. They have learned nothing.

or, in this day and age: a computer with a well loaded HD can supply you with all the answers you want but the computer cannot make a decision. It cannot apply logic and adjust an answer using that logic. That is what you gain by being in class and answering the questions asked in class.

What more can be taught?

How to answer; why is your answer on the test correct. Learning is so much more that memorizing data and facts, especially when training for something like nursing. Can I read a book and tell you how to do heart surgery, sure. Are you willing to let me operate on your heart because I can tell you how to do it?

 

[caslerst]

My wife is a professor and she only allows so many missed classes per semester.

I always felt that college was about knowing the material so who cares if I come to class?

Her points:
1) Lots of students miss classes and then drop. If she has a waiting list, she wants to get those who drop out, so that those who want to attend can.

2) Knowing the material is more than passing a test. For instance, she is a Spanish professor. Just because you can conjugate a verb and memorize vocabulary does not mean that you can speak the language.

3) Her class, her rules.

 

[narcosleepygirl]

Here in Wa a girl was failed from a class for lack of attendance and she took it to court. The superior court determined that since she paid for her classes it was her right to choose whether she would attend or not and if she turned in all the required materials for the class, there was no reason for the instructor to fail her.

Now some instructors have added a participation clause to their grading instead of attendance.

 

[CdwJava]

When I was in college each class was different. Some required attendance AND participation, others did not require either. I had one that said the textbook would be used for weekly quizzes, but the mid-term and the final would be based SOLELY on the lecture! Now THAT was a great incentive to attend an otherwise dull music history course!

The syllabus should outline the policies of the instructor, and the school's attendance policies should cover the rest. Read the two of them and your rights and responsibilities should be pretty clear.

- Carl