Is there a way to track marital assets that have been buried and moved?

[MFinancier]

The letter was addressed to me and I know those rules since I worked for the PO 27 years,In the 4 years we have been to numerous counselors and pastors. Most attempts for reconcile was per request of my husband mostly because I figured if he did not initiate it he would not stay in it either. I was always willing as long as he stayed in counsel.But after 4 years and a final round with new counselors I am giving up the hope of anything different. So if I show repeated attempts and being together thru out the 4 years is this considered NOT seperated? I could not move under the same roof due to Domestic Violence issues....That is why counsel was so vital.Thanks

Well it appears that there is some disagreement here concerning what constitutes legal separation and the marital cutoff date for income and debts...and we all make mistakes now and then...so beware of free advice. I'm just trying to help anyway I can. Thats why you should ultimately consult with an attorney. But either way...you must be prepared for the fact that your STBX will try to argue that the DOS should be the day he moved out. If in fact this will be your cutoff date for income and debt...that will obviously be to his financial advantage. Make sure you have good records of everything, and you may need a financial forensics expert. Hiding money is not that easy though, and you would be amazed at what they can dig up. Just don't open his mail Good Luck!

 

[Ohiogal]

Hey Gal...whats cookin? What am I missing here? Does this help?

CALIFORNIA: In re Marriage of Hardin, ___ Cal. App. 4th ___, 45 Cal. Rptr. 2d 308 (1995).
To identify the date of separation, the parties' subjective intents must be objectively determined from all of the evidence reflecting their words and actions during the disputed time period to ascertain when the rift in their relationship was final.

California uses the date of separation as the crucial date for determining the spouses' property interests: property acquired by a spouse after the date of separation is classified as that spouse's separate property, whereas property acquired before the date of separation is community property. The discussion in In re Marriage of Hardin may be of interest to lawyers in equitable distribution states that likewise use the date of separation as the cutoff date for marital property. The court endorsed a subjective test that depends upon an assessment of all relevant evidence rather than only one or two factors being considered dispositive.


Sounds like OP's relationship was cooked awhile ago....

DOS=CUTOFF DATE for separate income and debt (with some exceptions)! Right?

I appreciate the case law. However the argument could be made that they weren't actually separated but were working reconciliation up until the papers were filed. Also, it needs to be asked -- when was the last booty call? Last dinner together? Last time they shared a home? Separation is NOT just when the two of them stopped living together. And since they were doing counseling together, there relationship was NOT done.

 

[MFinancier]

I appreciate the case law. However the argument could be made that they weren't actually separated but were working reconciliation up until the papers were filed. Also, it needs to be asked -- when was the last booty call? Last dinner together? Last time they shared a home? Separation is NOT just when the two of them stopped living together. And since they were doing counseling together, there relationship was NOT done.

Your welcome Yes all of the above could make a difference in the determination, including I understand...letters or notes signed with things like..."love you very much", "miss you" etc. However some people view counseling as "We are getting divorced unless this works". Either way it only takes one party to show intent...and her STBX could say he didn't really want to go to counseling and never thought it would work....of course if you look at the time line of my posts...there was no mention of counseling until after I first posted.

 

[tuffbrk]

The court will be mostly interested in current earnings. If he made a zillion dollars last year but his business fell off in 2008, last year's earnings will not be particularly helpful.

Seniors - can you clarify - Is the above statement true in CA? It isn't true in NJ - they average the past 3 yrs regardless if income is trending up or down. This is the 2nd time I've seen this statement made and would appreciate it being clarified to better understand for my own knowledge.

/sorry for any hijack...

 

[LdiJ]

Seniors - can you clarify - Is the above statement true in CA? It isn't true in NJ - they average the past 3 yrs regardless if income is trending up or down. This is the 2nd time I've seen this statement made and would appreciate it being clarified to better understand for my own knowledge.

/sorry for any hijack...

I don't think its necessarily a hard and fast rule in most states that the last 2 or 3 years are averaged, but I also don't think that its an uncommon thing for a judge to do in any state, when there has been a significant or abrupt change in income.

 

[tuffbrk]

Thanks LdiJ!

 

[seniorjudge]

I don't think its necessarily a hard and fast rule in most states that the last 2 or 3 years are averaged, but I also don't think that its an uncommon thing for a judge to do in any state, when there has been a significant or abrupt change in income.

Correct.

The more years that are averaged, then the truer the picture will be.

 

[mistoffolees]

Correct.

The more years that are averaged, then the truer the picture will be.

Again, it depends.

Take, for example, the person who earned $100 K per year, but then retires and now earns $30 K per year from his retirement funds.

Which is a truer picture of his ability to pay in the future? Obviously, the $30 K figure. So the question the judge has to resolve is whether the drop in income is permanent or transient. There's a good deal of discretion in this matter. STBX will clearly argue that the construction business for 2003-2007 was a once-in-a-lifetime deal and is not likely to recover to that level any time soon.

But it's really not relevant. OP probably has enough to ask the judge to subpoena all his financial records and she is likely to find that he's lying to the court - in which case the judge is not going to give him a break on any drop in earnings.

 

[LdiJ]

Again, it depends.

Take, for example, the person who earned $100 K per year, but then retires and now earns $30 K per year from his retirement funds.

Which is a truer picture of his ability to pay in the future? Obviously, the $30 K figure. So the question the judge has to resolve is whether the drop in income is permanent or transient. There's a good deal of discretion in this matter. STBX will clearly argue that the construction business for 2003-2007 was a once-in-a-lifetime deal and is not likely to recover to that level any time soon.

But it's really not relevant. OP probably has enough to ask the judge to subpoena all his financial records and she is likely to find that he's lying to the court - in which case the judge is not going to give him a break on any drop in earnings.

Come on...that situtation is vastly different than the case in point.

Also, your description deals with issues like alimony or other ongoing support, it doesn't deal with division of marital assets or hiding of marital assets...which I think is more the focus of the OP.

 

[nextwife]

You'll need to have a look at his bank records to show that his deposits are much greater than his claimed income.

Than his claimed NET income?

Because MANY businesses have deposits that are much greater than their claimed net income. My husband only nets about 10 cents on every dollar he earns on the product he produces- the rest is paid out for materials and third party labor.

And home contractors have some comparatively hefty materials costs. Each check that comes in after a job is completed may include funds for subcontractors and material suppliers that must be paid.

 

[mistoffolees]

Than his claimed NET income?

Because MANY businesses have deposits that are much greater than their claimed net income. My husband only nets about 10 cents on every dollar he earns on the product he produces- the rest is paid out for materials and third party labor.

And home contractors have some comparatively hefty materials costs. Each check that comes in after a job is completed may include funds for subcontractors and material suppliers that must be paid.

Of course. A decent forensic accountant would take that all into account. 'Income' for a business is generally the profit left after paying all expenses. No one I know uses 'income' if they really mean 'revenue' which is the total amount of money received from customers.

Income = Revenue - expenses (very simplistically)

 

[mistoffolees]

Come on...that situtation is vastly different than the case in point.

Depends. If his drop in income is permanent, it's not that different than the retirement situation. He could argue that his income will never return to the 2002-2006 levels (or, at least, not for many years).

That's why I said that it's going to depend on the actual situation and how much credibility he has with the judge.

 

[deedee584]

As of this last May he appeared in court and agreed to counsel again and settlement conference was posponed till Sept08. Again he reneged on it after 8 weeks and I have a text prooving this. But then I received a letter requesting again to work on the marraige Aug 5th.
Now I know he is incapable of commitment and there's more going on here. My belief is he is stalling trying to stall settlement. I AM OFF this roller coaster. But I want to show that we were still in marraige as far as tying up my life and my commitment to it.And he was just as responsible in this prolonging of it. I will suggest this forensic's search to my attorney but I know they are very costly! This 4 years financially recieving nothing so far has tapped me out. I have been jacked finacially while he's been merrily hiding the assets and laughing all the way to the bank? 2 earlier attempts were made to get this over and he agreed to counsel and then cancelled after he didn't like what he heard!
During those attempts he would NEVER send a finacial statement and even right up to May 08 settlement conference NO statement of accounts were made by him. WILL THIS BE in my favor that he did not PRODUCE a finacial report EVER!!!!!I produced 3 as my income decreased and value kept dropping?

 

[mistoffolees]

I will suggest this forensic's search to my attorney but I know they are very costly! This 4 years financially recieving nothing so far has tapped me out. I have been jacked finacially while he's been merrily hiding the assets and laughing all the way to the bank? 2 earlier attempts were made to get this over and he agreed to counsel and then cancelled after he didn't like what he heard!
During those attempts he would NEVER send a finacial statement and even right up to May 08 settlement conference NO statement of accounts were made by him. WILL THIS BE in my favor that he did not PRODUCE a finacial report EVER!!!!!I produced 3 as my income decreased and value kept dropping?

Counseling stuff isn't relevant.

A forensic accountant is expensive, but if you think he's hiding major assets, then it could pay for itself many times over. Only you can tell that.

HOWEVER, it's premature to hire a forensic accountant until you get his banking information. The procedure is as follows:
1. You obtain a court order for him to produce documents (you may have already done that). Make sure there's a date on the order.
2. If he fails to produce documents, you go back to court and have him held in contempt and ask for a subpoena for all the accounts you already know about. The judge will force him to provide the documents and/or will issue the subpoena. It sounds like your attorney dropped the ball if he hasn't filed for contempt.
3. He could continue to refuse to provide docs, but it might cost him jail time. However, if you have the supboena for the accounts you know about, you can start to connect the dots (for example, did he write checks to another account or does he show transfers to another account).
4. One of the documents your attorney should have requested is his 2007 tax return. That will have any account which paid him interest listed - since interest is reported to the IRS, he may be uncomfortable with leaving those accounts off his tax form, so you can learn about hidden accounts.
5. Assuming that you get the documents, then you decide if it's worth the cost of the forensic accountant. You can do some of the work yourself (such as tracking accounts as above).

Bottom line is that you have a right to that account information so get your attorney off his butt to file for contempt if there is a court order in place and stbx has not done what the court asked. If there's no court order in place, file a subpoena for all the relevant docs.

 

[pookie626]

marital assets buried and moved

I'm not an attorney, but I am 3 years into a California divorce, and have learned quite a bit about it.

The most recent post mentions mandatory settlement conference, so it appears that the petition has been filed. The petition for dissolution should state a date of separation, and repeated counseling attempts won't alter the date if there has been no moving back into the home or other acts to imply that you BOTH wanted to repair the marriage. If you filed that petition, you probably have no way of changing your mind about that separation date now. It is a "no fault" State, and how you FEEL about things, and what he did or didn't do in or out of counseling matters not at all.

You originally asked about "buried and moved" marital assets. He is responsible for the actual marital assets in his possession (which has nothing to do with his earnings after the REAL date of separation). The judge will not appreciate it if you try to confuse the case to battle over stuff that doesn't matter within the law. You can't call two years of living as husband and wife plus four years living as singles (who haven't handled your divorce) a six-year marriage.

There really aren't any "magic tricks". The law is pretty simple, and the judge wants the true facts to interpret the law as it is intended. His 2007 tithe implies an income of $270 K, and if he made that much when you were married, then you should hire a Family Law Specialist and try to be honest and open and get a "fair" divorce. What is "fair" is dealing with the true facts that impact the case, and applying the law properly. Getting subpeonas and conducting discovery is much easier in Cali than the other responses have implied, but the particulars of your case might make it a silly and expensive thing to do. If you can not afford an attorney, then you might have been silly about getting temporary spousal support and attorney's fees if he made $270K per year when you were married. If you are entitled to some kind of support, then he has no right to go from $270K income to $21K income, and he can be imputed for what he SHOULD be earning, even if your discovery doesn't prove that he has been earning it. If he made $21K when you were married, then you might have just driven yourself crazy over the tithe statement, thinking you'd just won the lottery. Most likely, you haven't won any lottery and his situation now is probably much as it was when you were together.

The information you provided has been jumbled (seems to imply dishonesty) and incomplete, and I am afraid that you have no idea what your question is. You need to consult with a divorce specialist in California who has all of the REAL and honest facts. You have certain rights and responsibilities, and so does your ex.