Security Deposit, Pet Deposit, Notice

[CJane]

Semantics is a professional language game designed not to convey the plain truth which causes error in interpretation.
Straight forward language makes for clear understanding. Question: Did tenant include forwarding address with ORIGINAL notice to vacate?

Tenant was NOT REQUIRED TO. BUT YES, TENANT DID.

Semantics:
“I turned in my keys and a forwarding address.” “I did the forwarding thing w/the post office…” “I left a forwarding address w/the complex…”

And that's not 'semantics'. I DID turn in my keys and a forwarding address.
I DID fill out the change of address paperwork w/the post office in order to have my mail forwarded to my new address.
I AGAIN informed the LL of the new address when I sent them my original demand letter.

I include my address on EVERY. SINGLE. PIECE. OF. CORRESPONDENCE. Always have.

All of which is irrelevant as they had my last known address and that is where they are obligated to send ALL notices to.

State Law:
Tenant must deliver the forwarding address IN WRITING with the Notice to Vacate in order to make a claim of security deposit violation.

Tenant statements clearly imply that the original WRITTEN notice to vacate did NOT include the forwarding address. The law will not work in YOUR (tenant) favor if the notice to vacate did not include the forwarding mailing address. If the forwarding address was included with the notice to vacate then it is a clear error of the LL's part. Otherwise, tenant is responsible for the delayed delivery for not providing the forwarding address with the notice to vacate.

Please provide the cite/link for the 'State Law' you've paraphrased above. I'll be most interested in reading it.

Especially since the Missouri Statute, which I've quoted, clearly states that the Notice of Inspection, the Refund Check and the Itemized listing of damages/deductions all be sent to the Last Known Address of the tenant OR the Current Address IF PROVIDED. And all must be done in 30 days from date of move-out which was NOT DONE.

 

[CourtClerk]

Please provide the cite/link for the 'State Law' you've paraphrased above. I'll be most interested in reading it.

Don't hold your breath..... you'd just as soon find a cat in your fridge before that pops up

 

[MIRAKALES]

3) The 'vacate inspection' says that it was completed, and a copy of the paperwork along with my partial refund were mailed to me on June 20, 2008. Obviously, this is ... inaccurate... since I didn't receive my partial refund until August (the check is dated July 30). And I actually received this 'vacate inspection' this past Saturday.
If I do file in small claims court, do I serve the manager (who signed the inspection and the lease) or the corporate office (for which I only have a PO Box)?

NEITHER the manager or corporate officer should be sued. Tenant has NO PROOF that management did not issue the Security Deposit Settlement Statement within thirty (30) days. Tenant cannot verify that the settlement statement was not delivered or forwarded by the USPS. Tenant only knows that the settlement statement and security refund were not received, but that is not provable. It is possible that the initial mailing was lost by USPS -- this does happen. The settlement statement and security deposit refund may be in the USPS Dead Letter Office. In addition, tenant did not communicate the settlement statement issue to management until ten (10) weeks after move-out. At which time, management responded accordingly and re-issued the settlement statement and security deposit refund.

----------
Missouri Revised Statutes Chapter 535
Landlord-Tenant Actions Section 535.300
August 28, 2007

Security deposits, limitation--return of deposit or notice of damages, when--withholding deposit, when--tenant's right to damages--security deposit defined.
535.300. 1. A landlord may not demand or receive a security deposit in excess of two months' rent.
2. Within thirty days after the date of termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall:
(1) Return the full amount of the security deposit; or
(2) Furnish to the tenant a written itemized list of the damages for which the security deposit or any portion thereof is withheld, along with the balance of the security deposit. The landlord shall have complied with this subsection by mailing such statement and any payment to the last known address of the tenant.

 

[Bloopy]

Tenant has NO PROOF that management did not issue the Security Deposit Settlement Statement within thirty (30) days. Tenant cannot verify that the settlement statement was not delivered or forwarded by the USPS. Tenant only knows that the settlement statement and security refund were not received, but that is not provable.

Are you reading CJane's posts?

The POSTMARK and CHECK ISSUE dates are PROOF that management did not issue the Security Deposit Settlement Statement within thirty (30) days.

The settlement statement HAS been received but is LATE.

I have a letter that's post marked Aug 21 that states that it was mailed on June 20. It also states that my check is enclosed.

But my check is dated July 30 and came in an envelope postmarked August 5.

Moved out June 1.

August 9, I received a partial refund of my security deposit ($235) with no explanation as to why more than 1/2 of it was withheld.

On August 23, I received a 'vacate inspection' form which stated that they had to clean the carpets at a cost of $200 due to 'excessive pet urine stains' and they had to replace 2 burner drip pans, as well as paint the apartment.

I didn't receive my partial refund until August (the check is dated July 30). And I actually received this 'vacate inspection' this past Saturday.

 

[MIRAKALES]

The point being made is that the settlement statement and security deposit refund could have been issued in June 2008, as stated by LL. The August 2008 issuance was possibly (and likely) a second replacement mailing after LL was notified by tenant of non-receipt. It appears that LL uses USPS first class mail (no tracking) rather than USPS certified mail (tracked/confirmed).

According to Missouri State law, LL only need mail the settlement statement and payment to last known address of tenant -- proof of mailing not required. Tenant could have possibly received the first mailing within thirty (30) days. USPS could have possibly lost the first mailing within thirty (30) days. LL could have possibly not issued the mailing within thirty (30) days.

POINT TAKEN:
None of it is provable in a court of law to justify a lawsuit. The settlement statement and security deposit refund were delivered… BE DONE!
Nor can tenant prove that LL was provided with a forwarding mailing address. In tenant's own words, “I turned in my keys and a forwarding address.” “I did the forwarding thing w/the post office…” “I left a forwarding address w/the complex…”

 

[CJane]

NEITHER the manager or corporate officer should be sued. Tenant has NO PROOF that management did not issue the Security Deposit Settlement Statement within thirty (30) days. Tenant cannot verify that the settlement statement was not delivered or forwarded by the USPS. Tenant only knows that the settlement statement and security refund were not received, but that is not provable. It is possible that the initial mailing was lost by USPS -- this does happen. The settlement statement and security deposit refund may be in the USPS Dead Letter Office. In addition, tenant did not communicate the settlement statement issue to management until ten (10) weeks after move-out. At which time, management responded accordingly and re-issued the settlement statement and security deposit refund.

----------
Missouri Revised Statutes Chapter 535
Landlord-Tenant Actions Section 535.300
August 28, 2007

Security deposits, limitation--return of deposit or notice of damages, when--withholding deposit, when--tenant's right to damages--security deposit defined.
535.300. 1. A landlord may not demand or receive a security deposit in excess of two months' rent.
2. Within thirty days after the date of termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall:
(1) Return the full amount of the security deposit; or
(2) Furnish to the tenant a written itemized list of the damages for which the security deposit or any portion thereof is withheld, along with the balance of the security deposit. The landlord shall have complied with this subsection by mailing such statement and any payment to the last known address of the tenant.

Here's what you're not grasping.

I don't have to prove that they didn't mail it. They have to prove that they did.

And for the last freaking time. They did not mail anything at all to my last known address. Read my posts!

Also. I'm not seeking advice about whether I should sue.

My question. Asked repeatedly. Is:

IN THE EVENT THAT A LANDLORD IN MISSOURI DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE STATUTORILY REQUIRED 30 DAY WINDOW, DO THEY FORFEIT THE DEPOSIT IN ITS ENTIRETY REGARDLESS OF ACTUAL/ALLEGED DAMAGES.

Further, do you not see the iodiocy in the LL claiming that they DID, in fact, mail the Notice of Inspection and I didn't receive it. AND they mailed the Vacate Inspection and I didn't receive it. AND they mailed the refund and I didn't receive it? And all of that happened prior to June 30, and the mailing of the vacate inspection and the refund were mailed after June 20 but before June 30.

And YES I waited until about 60 days had passed to demand my refund. It's called a grace period. Because you can bet, had they complied with MOST of the statute, in that they notified me of everything, but were 'running behind' and didn't get around to it til Mid-July, I would have never said a word.

 

[CJane]

POINT TAKEN:
None of it is provable in a court of law to justify a lawsuit. The settlement statement and security deposit refund were delivered… BE DONE!
Nor can tenant prove that LL was provided with a forwarding mailing address. In tenant's own words, “I turned in my keys and a forwarding address.” “I did the forwarding thing w/the post office…” “I left a forwarding address w/the complex…”

Hey Seuss, PAY ATTENTION. I'll type slowly.

I CAN prove they have my forwarding address.

How?

Because the VACATE INSPECTION DATED 06/20 BUT MAILED 08/21 SAYS:

"MAILED TO CJANE ON JUNE 20, 2008 AT THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
MY ADDRESS
MY CITY, MO ZIP"

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Explain to me HOW they're going to claim they didn't have my address when THEY CLAIM THEY MAILED THE PACKAGE TO MY ADDRESS?????

 

[Bloopy]

Hey Seuss, PAY ATTENTION. I'll type slowly.

I CAN prove they have my forwarding address.

How?

Because the VACATE INSPECTION DATED 06/20 BUT MAILED 08/21 SAYS:

"MAILED TO CJANE ON JUNE 20, 2008 AT THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
MY ADDRESS
MY CITY, MO ZIP"

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Explain to me HOW they're going to claim they didn't have my address when THEY CLAIM THEY MAILED THE PACKAGE TO MY ADDRESS?????

BWahahaha .

 

[MIRAKALES]

THE MISSOURI STATUTES ON RENTAL SECURITY DEPOSITS IS PLAIN AND CLEAR. LL WOULD HAVE TO WRONGFULLY WITHHOLD SECURITY DEPOSIT IN ORDER FOR TENANT TO RECOVER DAMAGES OF NOT MORE THAN TWICE THE AMOUNT WRONGFULLY WITHHELD. There was no amount wrongfully withheld. According to tenant, security deposit was partially refunded, albeit late. Tenant does not want to understand legal terms such as "wrongfully" and "withhold" which does not penalize for late settlements, does not require forfeiture of late settlements, etc. There will be no penalty or forfeiture for the return of the security deposit, administrative delays, intentional delays, etc. The only remaining issues is whether the settlement deductions were justified. The settlement charges were itemized and clearly the premises were not restored to ORIGINAL condition at move-out.
(The State of Missouri does not address these late security deposit issues. Therefore, tenant would need to prove that LL "wrongfully withheld security deposit" which is the only statute issue that Missouri acknowledges.) ... tenant should continue to protest the issue with the LL and legislature for satisfaction.

--------------------
Missouri Revised Statutes Chapter 535
Landlord-Tenant Actions Section 535.300
August 28, 2007

Security deposits, limitation--return of deposit or notice of damages, when--withholding deposit, when--tenant's right to damages--security deposit defined.

535.300. 1. A landlord may not demand or receive a security deposit in excess of two months' rent.

2. Within thirty days after the date of termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall:
(1) Return the full amount of the security deposit; or
(2) Furnish to the tenant a written itemized list of the damages for which the security deposit or any portion thereof is withheld, along with the balance of the security deposit. The landlord shall have complied with this subsection by mailing such statement and any payment to the last known address of the tenant.

3. The landlord may withhold from the security deposit only such amounts as are reasonably necessary for the following reasons:
(1) To remedy a tenant's default in the payment of rent due to the landlord, pursuant to the rental agreement;
(2) To restore the dwelling unit to its condition at the commencement of the tenancy, ordinary wear and tear excepted; or
(3) To compensate the landlord for actual damages sustained as a result of the tenant's failure to give adequate notice to terminate the tenancy pursuant to law or the rental agreement; provided that the landlord makes reasonable efforts to mitigate damages.

4. The landlord shall give the tenant or his representative reasonable notice in writing at his last known address or in person of the date and time when the landlord will inspect the dwelling unit following the termination of the rental agreement to determine the amount of the security deposit to be withheld, and the inspection shall be held at a reasonable time. The tenant shall have the right to be present at the inspection of the dwelling unit at the time and date scheduled by the landlord.

5. If the landlord wrongfully withholds all or any portion of the security deposit in violation of this section, the tenant shall recover as damages not more than twice the amount wrongfully withheld.

6. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the right of the landlord to recover actual damages in excess of the security deposit, or to permit a tenant to apply or deduct any portion of the security deposit at any time in lieu of payment of rent.

7. As used in this section, the term "security deposit" means any deposit of money or property, however denominated, which is furnished by a tenant to a landlord to secure the performance of any part of the rental agreement, including damages to the dwelling unit. This term does not include any money or property denominated as a deposit for a pet on the premises.

 

[CourtClerk]

Ya know what CJane? I think tomorrow, I'll PM some of the LL's on here who will know what they are talking about... Mirakles, not only doesn't know CA LL/T law, he doesn't have a clue about MO LL/T laws, and can't even decipher your clearly written post to answer the question that was asked... MULTIPLE TIMES. It's like talking to a brick wall.

In case I forget, get in touch with CA_LL, Alaska or CO landlord and see what they say...

 

[MIRAKALES]

This is a dispute about non-receipt of settlement statement or late delivery of settlement statement. Tenant claims non-issuance of settlement. LL claims non-delivery of settlement. (LLs that deal with enough tenants can distinguish credible claims from false claims… fortunately, so can many courts.)

Tenant would be wise to consult with a Missouri real estate attorney or the Missouri courts for clarity. It is apparent that message board critics (who are not knowledgeable of the law) cannot assist. A majority consensus that is incorrectly in agreement will not help tenant's cause. Nevertheless, the law is clear:

"If the landlord wrongfully withholds all or any portion of the security deposit in violation of this section, the tenant shall recover as damages not more than twice the amount wrongfully withheld." (Missouri Landlord-Tenant Actions Section 535.300)​

Only a Missouri court can determine whether LL was "wrongful" or "in violation." Based upon tenant's posted information, the LL's actions or presumed inaction does not meet those levels of disregard of the law. However, it is amusing how much time is invested in character accusations and PETTY CASH issues -- $260 dollars... pet issues... ridiculous!

 

[CJane]

Nevertheless, the law is clear:

"If the landlord wrongfully withholds all or any portion of the security deposit in violation of this section, the tenant shall recover as damages not more than twice the amount wrongfully withheld." (Missouri Landlord-Tenant Actions Section 535.300)​

Out of curiosity, do you understand the definition of the word shall?

I'll help. (bear in mind, I'm typing very very slowly)

Main Entry: shall
Pronunciation: \shəl, ˈshal\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): past should \shəd, ˈshu̇d\; present singular & plural shall
Etymology: Middle English shal (1st & 3d singular present indicative), from Old English sceal; akin to Old High German scal (1st & 3d singular present indicative) ought to, must, Lithuanian skola debt
Date: before 12th century
verbal auxiliary
1archaic a: will have to : must b: will be able to : can
2 a&#8212;used to express a command or exhortation <you shall go> b&#8212;used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory <it shall be unlawful to carry firearms>

So when the MO statute says "The landlord shall within 30 days:..." and the landlord doesn't within 30 days, then the LL has violated that section of the law and therefore any amount withheld from the security deposit is wrongfully withheld.

Only a Missouri court can determine whether LL was "wrongful" or "in violation." Based upon tenant's posted information, the LL's actions or presumed inaction does not meet those levels of disregard of the law. However, it is amusing how much time is invested in character accusations and PETTY CASH issues -- $260 dollars... pet issues... ridiculous!

Thank you for your opinion. And perhaps to you the issue of $260 is petty. However, to me it is not.

 

[MIRAKALES]

As tenant continues to play trivial pursuit and games with semantics… REMEMBER quality rentals are difficult to obtain without qualified LL references.

Continue to TYPE s-l-o-w-l-y, as YOU bear in mind that the LL has no further obligation to tenant. Yet, tenant is still dispositioned to pursue fraudulent (or half-hearted) claims of unproven security deposits issues and undelivered settlement statements. While simultaneously playing semantic word games -- SHALL? -- Is that the best tenant can do? (The semantics about the written notices were more intriguing, although not compelling.)

The court systems are full of perpetual tenants in pursuit of unjustifiable PETTY CASH claims. (Time better spent on working for achievements rather than hopes of undeserved rewards.) Meanwhile, those who type quickly tend not to make public inquiries about false allegations. In preparation for court, try to focus on the laundry list of reasons the WITHHELD amounts were WRONGFUL. Consider the multiple counter-defenses (LL, PM, USPS) to the timely mailings and premise conditions. Be prepared for the LL to document (with tenant’s notices) the numerous tenant lease violations. And, remember, that quality rentals are difficult to obtain without qualified former LL references.

Good luck in learning one of life’s simply lessons regarding the T-R-U-T-H (typed slowly)… emphasis for those that are logistically challenged and semantically deficient and morally incomprehensible.

 

[CourtClerk]

As tenant continues to play trivial pursuit and games with semantics… REMEMBER quality rentals are difficult to obtain without qualified LL references.

She'll keep that in mind i'm sure... she just BOUGHT a house... read: homeowner

 

[CJane]

She'll keep that in mind i'm sure... she just BOUGHT a house... read: homeowner

Stop playing with the semantics.

Of course, I have all the LL references I need considering my family is in the rental business in several states. But that's neither here nor there.

I would LOVE it if someone who could pass a sanity screen could answer my very general and very simple question, which I shall type again, slowly and clearly.

IF a landlord violates any or all of the section(s) of statute that require(s) them to:

1. Notify tenant of the date/time of inspection
2. Allow tenant to be present at the time of inspection
3. Mail the inspection results/damages/deposit to tenant's last known address w/in 30 days of the termination of residency

does that then mean that any portion of the deposit that is withheld is considered by a reasonable person to be 'wrongfully' withheld?