Bible Quotes And Prayer At Public School Sponsored Event

[HomeGuru]

This thread rocks.

 

[CdwJava]

And it will probably get closed or locked soon enough.

- carl

 

[Humusluvr]

Tell your son that if he has a problem with it - to stand up in the middle of the prayer and yell "Prayer has no place in schools!". Or to tell them person who is using the Bible, "Quit forcing your views on me!"

Make sure he does it really loud and obnoxiously. He'll gain all kinds of friends.

That'll teach those jerks.

Or, you can let him formulate his own views and let others have theirs, and be accepting of all. Wouldn't that seem so nice? To let people have their views and not be all up in their stuff over it? Hmmmmmmm

 

[ecmst12]

A student reading the bible on his own in school - fine. A TEACHER sitting at his desk during study hall and reading the bible to himself - also fine. An english lit class on the literary and cultural significance of the bible - totally fine.

Students being led in prayer - NOT fine. Students having the bible read to them as a spiritual message (not a detached, scholarly analysis as if it were any other novel) - IN NO WAY acceptable. These things constitute an endorsement of a particular religion. Even if the prayer is non-denominational, what about the children being raised as atheists? I knew/know some of them. Even a silent prayer is skirting that line. If the child's parents aren't raising them to pray, then the school has no business telling them to do so. (And no, this would not be the same as announcing a 'moment of silence' to mourn a death or similar, though the line is fine, it's still there).

Oh and Humus - is it better to teach children NOT to speak up when their rights are infringed? Is it better to tell them NOT to object if someone of authority tells or implies that their lifestyle or religion, the one taught to them by their parents or arrived at on their own, is wrong, or not as good as someone else's? I don't think so. One can stand up for one's rights without being obnoxious, and that's exactly what we should be teaching.

 

[seniorjudge]

I hereby propose a prayer that will be acceptable to ALL shades of belief and disbelief:

"O Whatever, whatever. Amen."

 

[Silverplum]

I hereby propose a prayer that will be acceptable to ALL shades of belief and disbelief:

"O Whatever, whatever. Amen."

Does "Whatever" (the first one) connote a non-entity to whom one may be praying?

Upon reading my insightful question, don't you feel a teensy compulsion to change it to "O Whomever"??

 

[seniorjudge]

Does "Whatever" (the first one) connote a non-entity to whom one may be praying?

Upon reading my insightful question, don't you feel a teensy compulsion to change it to "O Whomever"??

* any(a): one or some or every or all without specification; "give me any peaches you don't want"; "not any milk is left"; "any child would know ...
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I am going with the Princeton definition which includes entities and non-entities.



Upon reading my insightful question, don't you feel a teensy compulsion to change it to "O Whomever"?

Are you threatening me again? I love it...

 

[CdwJava]

Students being led in prayer - NOT fine.

They do not have to participate. Again, if the teacher is requiring it - bad. If the teacher permits it, fine. Children and staff are under no requirement to check their faith at the the door ... remember that First Amendment.

Students having the bible read to them as a spiritual message (not a detached, scholarly analysis as if it were any other novel) - IN NO WAY acceptable.

Read by whom and when? Another student reading the bible before their class? Fine.

These things constitute an endorsement of a particular religion.

Hardly. In some extreme cases, perhaps. In most cases, it's not even close ... though some courts have discovered the word "from" in the word "of" of the First Amendment somehow.

In the instance in question, we have no way to put the situation in context. maybe it was improper, maybe it was not.

Even if the prayer is non-denominational, what about the children being raised as atheists? I knew/know some of them. Even a silent prayer is skirting that line.

And some school districts - afraid of being sued by a vocal minority - have even banned football teams from praying and have disciplined PLAYERS for praying in the locker room or even on the field.

If the child's parents aren't raising them to pray, then the school has no business telling them to do so. (And no, this would not be the same as announcing a 'moment of silence' to mourn a death or similar, though the line is fine, it's still there).

A moment of silence is perfectly fine. No one has to pray, no one has to do anything but be silent and not disturb their neighbor for 60 seconds.

- Carl

 

[>Charlotte<]

Very interesting discussion. It's one of those odd times when I think two opposing points of view are both correct. It's hard for me to reconcile.

OP doesn't seem to be checking in, and I wish s/he would. I think this needs clarification:

...there was no opt out given to the students...or that I was notified, or that my son had the opportunity to opt out?

I wonder what "opt out" implies. Was the student required to pray?

 

[Humusluvr]

One can stand up for one's rights without being obnoxious, and that's exactly what we should be teaching.

Isn't THAT EXACTLY what I said?

Be respectful of all?

Let me tell you a little story. *hijack* When I was working as a teacher on the Mexican border - NOT MEXICO, IN THE STATES - the principal of my school constantly addressed the entire staff in Spanish. A language I do not speak. The superintendent did the same thing. I would miss important directives and instructions and generally have no clue what was going on.

Instead of beefing and whining about my rights and what a violation it was (it was, obviously) I decided to become more understanding. I took it as one of life's challenges. I actually MOVED to Mexico for the summer between teaching sessions and learned Spanish.

When I got back, I felt empowered to understand the language and the culture. I was a better person and felt extremely fulfilled. I understood so much more about my colleagues. I was a participant.

Point is, why bitch all the time? Get educated, and learn some tolerance. If you don't want to listen to Bible reading, then silently excuse yourself. If you don't like a Muslim prayer, bow your head and think your own thoughts. If you don't want to watch gays hold hands, look the other way.

People need to get over themselves, and deal with stuff. Its not hurting you.

*end rant*

 

[seniorjudge]

...

When I got back, I felt empowered to understand the language and the culture.

...

I was empowered once.

Took a Valium and it cleared right up.

 

[oclfdot]

Wow!!!

Check back a few days later and look what happened!!!

First, I'll give more details about the event:

1. My son attends a public school.

2. The "team buidling" field trip was paid for with student fundraiding and parent fees. Checks were made out to the high school.

3. The location was a third party camp. The instruction was given by camp employees (possibly volunteers, not sure).

4. The camp had a religous theme, with crosses and other Christian ornaments in the buildings and on the courses, including a place called the "Jesus and Me Tree".

5. The camp instuctors are the ones who read from the Bible, and led a vocal prayer at the meal (not nearly as non-denominational a prayer as Seniorjudge's). This was done without any offer to students to leave the room.


Second, my personal reaction to the event:

This is beyond the beyond for me. This was not the singing of a traditional hymn, or students with an extra chromosome at the flagpole or football game.

The was advocacy of a particular brand of Christiantity. It occurred during school hours, as part of a cirriculum class, with a captive audience. This is way down the slippery slope.

Personally, I would prefer school employees quake with fear at the idea of the air conditioner humming too piously. That's how I remember it.



Third, my reaction to some of the posts in this thread:


Even some of you who think this was ridculous or wrong don't see the problem as my son didn't suffer any damage. No, my family's atheism is secure back to the 19th century, so that's not an issue. But I don't think that was ever the standard. It's not about damage; it's not about the possibility of a majority who are not bothered by it. It's about advocacy. This place with the "Jesus and Me Tree" is advocating a certain brand of a certain religion, and charging for the privilidge students who are in a public school class. The possiblility of just this is the cause of the opposition to, and I think the cause of the original prohibition of religious activity in public schools.

As for what I'll do. Complain, yes. Beyond that, I'm still digesting my thoughts and feelings. Looking back up the slope, it seems much of the soap's dried and I do have a grappling hook.

 

[Humusluvr]

The only real suggestion I have here, is to use this as a "teachable" moment for your son. Kids will see a lot of stuff in their lifetimes that go against what your family may believe in - so you have a chance to sit down with your kiddo and have a parental heart to heart. That's what my mom did when I learned some things in sex ed that she didn't agree with.

Did you not know where your son was going for the camp thing? That it was a church type camp? Any chance your kiddo has exaggerated a little once he saw what a great rise he was getting out of you?

 

[ecmst12]

If a teacher or other person in a position of authority stands up and says "ok class, now we are going to do this", the students are going to feel compelled to participate. If most of the rest of their classmates are participating and they are not, they may feel singled out and ostracized. Not only that, by leading the activity, the authority figure is stating explicitly or implicitly that the school wants people to participate. Apply that to a religious activity, and you end up with a big mess. Schools should not exclude people belonging to a minority religion or no religion. Schools should not be endorsing one faith over another. It has nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance. A classmate deciding on his own to pray quietly to himself while sitting next to another kid is not what I'm talking about either. It's the "leading of group activities" which is exclusionary to certain faiths. Simply saying that the jewish kid doesn't have to participate isn't enough. The mere fact that he is asked to is a problem. Because public schools are everyone's right, because school is where kids are taught that they should do what their teachers tell them, because school should be a place for rationality and science and things that can be proven or disproven, it is not a place for religion to be taught, encouraged, enforced, suggested, etc by those in charge.

 

[CdwJava]

Since public schools lack the resources and land to create assorted camps (science camps, outdoor ed programs and the like) they rely on outside facilities and programs. Many of these facilities belong to religious organizations. I used to work at an outdoor education science camp that was actually a church camp in the summer and on weekends. Yep, the kids from public schools throughout the state came to a camp where there were crosses and religious symbols scattered about. While there was no one there preaching, the kids dined in a hall with a dais and a cross, and slept in buildings with Bible quotes on them. The alternative for many of the schools in Orange County at that time would have been no program.

If the kids did fundraising I strongly suspect there was information disseminated on the program they were attending. if there wasn't, oops! Time to complain to the school.

Now, for those who find this activity somehow offensive, how about a field trip to a gay wedding? Is this a valid activity for a class of first graders?

- Carl