Will the courts award supervised visitation?

[killerzoey]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

Hi

I have a 3yo and a 7 week old and am considering divorcing my husband of 4 years. He is so laid back and ignorant that I have concerns for the kids should I divorce him. He has displayed ever worsening judgment when it comes to our oldest's safety:

- dropping my then 2 yo off with me at home while I'm napping (I'm napping in the back room, wake up and find my child home, I have not even been told I'm watching her, she's roaming free in the house unsupervised)

- leaving her with someone on the beach so he can surf, someone we don't really know that well and who when it comes right down to it is technically homeless,

- refusing to acknowledge that 4 days of not keeping anything down constitutes a dehydration concern/refusing to take daughter to ER...)

- refusing to acknowledge that a roommate with Hep C who leaves used razors around (I very nearly stepped on one with bare feet in the hallway) is a danger (I finally forced him out but it was UGLY)

And future concerns:

- his lack of discretion regarding future roommates (see above regarding his "Hep C is not dangerous" credo).

- his nightly tendency to fall asleep at 7 or 8pm, regardless of what the kids need. He honestly can't help it - he's had a hard morning of surfing and he is going to take an evening nap...period. I KNOW they will be unattended during this time should they spend the night.

- his NEED to surf daily and lack of discretion in arranging for appropriate childcare.

He may be well-meaning but I think this is a capacity issue. I think he honestly doesn't understand what can go wrong and refuses to acknowledge that his lax approach could be dangerous.

So, are the things I mentioned grounds for supervised visitation? And how hard is that to get? Would I have to have deep pockets and a go-ge-'em lawyer, or would the judge simply look at my list and make his decision? In other words, am I looking at one of those nasty custody battles?

If so, I don't have the money for that and I might consider staying just so I can avoid the anguish of handing our girls over to him. Especially for long periods of time, (like overnight)!

I would consider waiting until they're older to divorce, for safety reasons, but I know that it will be emotionally harder on them later. Just trying to see what my options are that will keep the kids safe.

Thanks.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

Hi

I have a 3yo and a 7 week old and am considering divorcing my husband of 4 years. He is so laid back and ignorant that I have concerns for the kids should I divorce him. He has displayed ever worsening judgment when it comes to our oldest's safety:

- dropping my then 2 yo off with me at home while I'm napping (I'm napping in the back room, wake up and find my child home, I have not even been told I'm watching her, she's roaming free in the house unsupervised)

YOu didn't realize your husband was home?

- leaving her with someone on the beach so he can surf, someone we don't really know that well and who when it comes right down to it is technically homeless,

He knew the person and the person is not a convicted pedophile right?

- refusing to acknowledge that 4 days of not keeping anything down constitutes a dehydration concern/refusing to take daughter to ER...)

And you didn't take her why?

- refusing to acknowledge that a roommate with Hep C who leaves used razors around (I very nearly stepped on one with bare feet in the hallway) is a danger (I finally forced him out but it was UGLY)

The roommate was YOUR roommate as well?

And future concerns:

- his lack of discretion regarding future roommates (see above regarding his "Hep C is not dangerous" credo).

Speculation and how did you force out the roommate unless the roommate was also living with you? Hence your roommate as well that you dealt with. How do we know that YOU will not have poor judgment in the future?

- his nightly tendency to fall asleep at 7 or 8pm, regardless of what the kids need. He honestly can't help it - he's had a hard morning of surfing and he is going to take an evening nap...period. I KNOW they will be unattended during this time should they spend the night.

No you don't. You cannot foretell the future. It may be different when someone else is there than if he is alone.

- his NEED to surf daily and lack of discretion in arranging for appropriate childcare.

What is appropriate childcare in your opinion? His need? He is allowed to have hobbies.

He may be well-meaning but I think this is a capacity issue. I think he honestly doesn't understand what can go wrong and refuses to acknowledge that his lax approach could be dangerous.

Ummm, speculation.

So, are the things I mentioned grounds for supervised visitation? And how hard is that to get? Would I have to have deep pockets and a go-ge-'em lawyer, or would the judge simply look at my list and make his decision? In other words, am I looking at one of those nasty custody battles?

Could be very difficult to get supervised based on what you have.

If so, I don't have the money for that and I might consider staying just so I can avoid the anguish of handing our girls over to him. Especially for long periods of time, (like overnight)!

Oh good grief.

I would consider waiting until they're older to divorce, for safety reasons, but I know that it will be emotionally harder on them later. Just trying to see what my options are that will keep the kids safe.

You don't get to dictate when you are divorced when the children are going to be with him.

 

[killerzoey]

In response...

YOu didn't realize your husband was home?

No. I did not realize my husband was home. He was in and out very briefly. I was fast asleep in the back room. DH opened the front door, pushed her in the house, got back in the car, and left. He does not deny that he did not even try to awaken me and let me know she was home. His words when I challenged his decision to leave her: "She's a good girl". She was 2 years old.


He knew the person and the person is not a convicted pedophile right?


Correct.



And you didn't take her why?

I did, of course. Sick myself with the stomach flu, with a two week old infant, I did. The concern this brings up for me is that if he was in charge by himself he would not have taken her in. She was severely dehydrated. Kids die from that all over the world. The only reason they don't here, of course, is that people recognize the symptoms and take them in. I do not think he has the awareness to even recognize an ill child when he sees one.


The roommate was YOUR roommate as well?

The roommate was his roommate and I moved in with DH to try things out (our relationship). So yes I suppose technically he was my roommate(?) I did not know we would have kids when I moved in and did not know it would be so hard to get rid of him if it became prudent to do so.


Speculation and how did you force out the roommate unless the roommate was also living with you? Hence your roommate as well that you dealt with. How do we know that YOU will not have poor judgment in the future?

I just told him to leave. When I made it clear that one of us was going to leave, in the end DH's bold chivalric move was that he did not stand in my way when I gave the roommate notice. How do we know I will not have poor judgment? Because I adapted in the way that a parent should, in my opinion. When children were introduced into the household, the roommate became too great a risk. Young kids do not know what to stay away from (razors, toothbrushes...) DH did NOT adapt in the way a parent should. He was utterly unconcerned about the Hep C risk. That is my argument.


No you don't. You cannot foretell the future. It may be different when someone else is there than if he is alone.

No, technically I cannot foretell the future. But if he has fallen asleep when he has been in charge of the kids at night before, and I have witnessed him nodding off at 7 over his dinner while in the middle of a sentence (his own), this is as close to a for sure thing as I can imagine. I understand the courts may not see it that way, but what am I to do as a concerned parent?


What is appropriate childcare in your opinion? His need? He is allowed to have hobbies.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that provided the person is not a known pedophile, they are good to go as a childcare providers. In my opinion, we ought to at the very least know their last names and have phone numbers and hopefully references.


Ummm, speculation.



Could be very difficult to get supervised based on what you have.

Good to know.


Oh good grief.

Your recommendation PLEASE? I am not making up my concerns and I do not feel they are small ones. Friends, even his, share my feelings.

You don't get to dictate when you are divorced when the children are going to be with him.

Please see responses in bold above. Thanks.

 

[killerzoey]

You also chose to have a second child with this man whom you now do not trust with the children. If issues are that serious [in your opinion] you would not have reproduced with him again.

Yes, I did have a second child with him. You got me there. I thought after the roommate battle had been won, that stuff would get better and it did, until the recent rash of safety issues (which happened since I got pregnant the 2nd time) has me realizing I assumed wrong. Of course there have been communication problems all along, but nothing shakes me as badly as worrying he'll inadvertently hurt the kids.

I appreciate the input and hope that what you say is true. I hope he will be more attentive than I imagine he will be, if I have to leave the kids with him. This is a really hard thought for me. In the words of my dad, who never says anything bad about anybody, "those poor kids".

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Dad might always really be uninterested and NOT spend much time with the children since it seems that first priorities is surf-boarding.

 

[killerzoey]

Dad might always really be uninterested and NOT spend much time with the children since it seems that first priorities is surf-boarding.

Sad but potentially true. I don't exactly know how he will act on the other side of this and am trying to prepare for the worst. But reality will probably be not as bad as I am imagining. I can possibly even get him to agree to daytime visitation. And he will probably blow off a good third of it anyway, if past performance is any indication.

 

[Ohiogal]

The major issues you have are that YOU are as poor a parent as he is based on what you have stated:

No. I did not realize my husband was home. He was in and out very briefly. I was fast asleep in the back room. DH opened the front door, pushed her in the house, got back in the car, and left. He does not deny that he did not even try to awaken me and let me know she was home. His words when I challenged his decision to leave her: "She's a good girl". She was 2 years old.

You cannot know that the above happened if you were fast asleep.

I did, of course. Sick myself with the stomach flu, with a two week old infant, I did. The concern this brings up for me is that if he was in charge by himself he would not have taken her in. She was severely dehydrated. Kids die from that all over the world. The only reason they don't here, of course, is that people recognize the symptoms and take them in. I do not think he has the awareness to even recognize an ill child when he sees one.

YOU DID NOT. You didn't have the awareness either. You had the child with you as well. YOU were not exactly being an attentive parent here. You weren't rushing YOUR child to the hospital. You didn't recognize the child needed to go until four days in. This was not a case of you two being separated. YOU were there. What took YOU four days to do something about your child? You were sick? Oh so your sickness if more important than the child's. Then the judge can draw from that is YOU will put YOURSELF before your child. Supervised visitation for you if you want it for him on that.

The roommate was his roommate and I moved in with DH to try things out (our relationship). So yes I suppose technically he was my roommate(?) I did not know we would have kids when I moved in and did not know it would be so hard to get rid of him if it became prudent to do so.

And you lived with the situation and had NO issues with it. But now you want to blame dad on it. He was not TECHNICALLY your roommate -- he was YOUR ROOMMATE just as much as dad's.

I just told him to leave. When I made it clear that one of us was going to leave, in the end DH's bold chivalric move was that he did not stand in my way when I gave the roommate notice. How do we know I will not have poor judgment? Because I adapted in the way that a parent should, in my opinion. When children were introduced into the household, the roommate became too great a risk. Young kids do not know what to stay away from (razors, toothbrushes...) DH did NOT adapt in the way a parent should. He was utterly unconcerned about the Hep C risk. That is my argument.

You had no right to tell him to leave. NONE. LEgally this man didn't have to go anywhere. Especially if he was on the lease. You could have been sued and the roommate could have won. You gave NOTICE? What gave you the role of landlord there? You did NOT adapt in a way that a parent should. And your opinion does not matter. As a parent it is YOUR job to keep them away from toothbrushes and razors. But you do NOT get to tell everyone else that they can no longer live and breathe your air. You are extremely lucky you were not sued by the roommate.

Your recommendation PLEASE? I am not making up my concerns and I do not feel they are small ones. Friends, even his, share my feelings.

You better realize that you have NO say so and very little case. Has dad ever been diagnosed with anemia? Narcolepsy? Has he had a physical? You cannot prove that he endangers the child anymore than you do.

Yes, I did have a second child with him. You got me there. I thought after the roommate battle had been won, that stuff would get better and it did, until the recent rash of safety issues (which happened since I got pregnant the 2nd time) has me realizing I assumed wrong. Of course there have been communication problems all along, but nothing shakes me as badly as worrying he'll inadvertently hurt the kids.

I appreciate the input and hope that what you say is true. I hope he will be more attentive than I imagine he will be, if I have to leave the kids with him. This is a really hard thought for me. In the words of my dad, who never says anything bad about anybody, "those poor kids".

Your dad is NOT an unbiased individual. You seem to want to control EVERYTHING dad does. Without taking responsibility for YOUR ROLE in it.

 

[Ohiogal]

Sad but potentially true. I don't exactly know how he will act on the other side of this and am trying to prepare for the worst. But reality will probably be not as bad as I am imagining. I can possibly even get him to agree to daytime visitation. And he will probably blow off a good third of it anyway, if past performance is any indication.

The worst is NOT dad wanting a relationship with his children. Answer this: Are you going to be hurt if the children are away from you overnight in the next few months?

 

[stealth2]

In the words of my dad, who never says anything bad about anybody, "those poor kids".

Why do I get the feeling that your Dad was referring to BOTH of the parents here?

 

[killerzoey]

The major issues you have are that YOU are as poor a parent as he is based on what you have stated:


You cannot know that the above happened if you were fast asleep.

HE TOLD me that's what he did!!!!



YOU DID NOT. You didn't have the awareness either. You had the child with you as well. YOU were not exactly being an attentive parent here. You weren't rushing YOUR child to the hospital. You didn't recognize the child needed to go until four days in. This was not a case of you two being separated. YOU were there. What took YOU four days to do something about your child? You were sick? Oh so your sickness if more important than the child's. Then the judge can draw from that is YOU will put YOURSELF before your child. Supervised visitation for you if you want it for him on that.

I have to say that I am having a really hard time understanding why the hostile tone is necessary. The four day mark is when we were advised to take the child to the hospital. The type of viral gastroenteritis that was going around the island tended to resolve at 3 days, so taking them in prior to that was not the way to go. I had been on the phone with the advice nurses and monitoring the situation closely from day one. Yes I was ill and of course I took her in, as mentioned. So no, my sickness was not more important and it had no bearing on when I took h er in. It was time to take the child. Not past time, per the nurses. But DH did not agree. My point is that he did not even think she was sick. Even when the advice nurse told him so (I handed the phone to him so he could hear). I am not just sitting here saying "look...he wouldn't take her and I was oh so sick" I'm not a wimp. Though it was no fun to be so sick and dealing with this traveling, my main concern other than for my 3yo was not that I was uncomfortable, it was that I had a two week old infant that did not need to be exposed to anything more than the germs she was already dealing with at home (the ER is of course not a recommended place for a baby that young to be unless they absolutely have to). This is another thing that the advice nurse told him over the phone. But his response was utterly lacking in belief or concern. He not only was unconcerned for his 3 year old, he was unconcerned for his 2 week old. But my primary point was that if it had just been him with the 3 year old, he would not have even noticed she was sick. I know this because I know him. And because when I tried to implore him to look at the symptoms, he just said "M*** - you feel fine, don't you? You're feeling better, right? See? She's feeling better already". And then he went to the movies.


And you lived with the situation and had NO issues with it. But now you want to blame dad on it. He was not TECHNICALLY your roommate -- he was YOUR ROOMMATE just as much as dad's.

I did have issues with it. I was reassured that we'd play it by ear, that he the roommate could go. Then DH changed his mind and made the Hep C risk seem minimal. He was used to the extra cash the roommate provided. My husband only works 1 day a week/gets money from Mom. Seeing that this was his main concern (not the kids' safety) I took up the financial slack so that the roommate could go.




You had no right to tell him to leave. NONE. LEgally this man didn't have to go anywhere. Especially if he was on the lease. You could have been sued and the roommate could have won. You gave NOTICE? What gave you the role of landlord there? You did NOT adapt in a way that a parent should. And your opinion does not matter. As a parent it is YOUR job to keep them away from toothbrushes and razors. But you do NOT get to tell everyone else that they can no longer live and breathe your air. You are extremely lucky you were not sued by the roommate.

No. The roommate was not on the lease. It's my husband's lease. There was no formal arrangement and in fact the man moved in one summer (according to my husband) for what was to be a short while and then just kind of never left. I am assuming if someone is not on the lease and if there is no formal agreement, they can be asked to leave. But maybe I'm wrong. I didn't just throw his stuff outside, for heaven's sake. He was given sufficient time to find a place.


You better realize that you have NO say so and very little case. Has dad ever been diagnosed with anemia? Narcolepsy? Has he had a physical? You cannot prove that he endangers the child anymore than you do.

No but maybe he should.

Your dad is NOT an unbiased individual. You seem to want to control EVERYTHING dad does. Without taking responsibility for YOUR ROLE in it.

I think that is an assumption - that I do not take responsibility for my role. I do take responsibility for my role in it. Would you like me to write about that? What I am talking about here, though, is my concerns for my children when they are with Dad. I am trying to be brief but maybe I'm being too brief?

 

[killerzoey]

The worst is NOT dad wanting a relationship with his children. Answer this: Are you going to be hurt if the children are away from you overnight in the next few months?

Am I going to be hurt? I need clarification on what you mean by that. Overnight with him? Then I will be worried. There is more to that statement than the safety concerns - the 3 year old just cries a lot with him and isn't bonded. I worry he won't brush her teeth (never has when I've asked him to). And of course, I'll miss them. I've never left them with anyone overnight except my husband when I had the second child (one night, relatives were here). Hurt? Not sure that fits...but please clarify. Look. I wish things were different and I wish I could be happy and feel good for them that they get to spend time with daddy. But like I said besides the safety concerns he's just kind of a talk over you deny your feelings not read to you just stare at the tv kind of guy. I made a bad choice. And I'm trying to find my way through this the best way I can. This does not mean I won't let them spend time with him or try to make it hard if that's the way it goes (unsupervised). But what I am communicating here are what my instincts are telling me as a mom, and I am wondering what can be done about it. I can try to accept that the answer may be "nothing".

 

[killerzoey]

Why do I get the feeling that your Dad was referring to BOTH of the parents here?

Wow - thanks very much. He said it when imagining them spending long chunks of time with him. You would have to know my husband to understand. In the words of Ohiogal - SPECULATION.

 

[stealth2]

Wow - thanks very much. He said it when imagining them spending long chunks of time with him. You would have to know my husband to understand. In the words of Ohiogal - SPECULATION.

Look, lady (I use the word advisedly) - YOU chose to create not only one, but TWO, children with a man who you apparently didn't know all that well. YOU chose to live in circumstances that were less than desirable. And now YOU are (theoretically) choosing to leave your husband - which WILL leave him with the ability to parent his children on his own for periods of time.

No, your track record isn't impressive. If you were my kid, I would likely think that neither of you were stellar parents, based on what you've shared. Time for you to pull your thumb out of it, and figure out how to make it work best for your kids. Cutting Dad as far out of the picture as possible 'cause you've realized your choices sucked isn't part of the equation.

Sorry you don't like that depiction of your situation - but it's pretty accurate based on your description.

 

[killerzoey]

Look, lady (I use the word advisedly) - YOU chose to create not only one, but TWO, children with a man who you apparently didn't know all that well. YOU chose to live in circumstances that were less than desirable. And now YOU are (theoretically) choosing to leave your husband - which WILL leave him with the ability to parent his children on his own for periods of time.

No, your track record isn't impressive. If you were my kid, I would likely think that neither of you were stellar parents, based on what you've shared. Time for you to pull your thumb out of it, and figure out how to make it work best for your kids. Cutting Dad as far out of the picture as possible 'cause you've realized your choices sucked isn't part of the equation.

Sorry you don't like that depiction of your situation - but it's pretty accurate based on your description.

You know what? That IS actually pretty accurate. My problem here is that I would have as much laid that out if I hadn't been wanting to get right to the point. I was trying not to be one of those people who writes a novel, just instead giving my precise concerns. And I don't mean I just wanted to get to bashing him. I had a much longer version typed out that included owning my own part in the description of the bigger picture, and I edited it to just include my specific concerns, thinking that might be appreciated (!) Yes. I have made bad choices. Yes. I am trying now to make better ones.

For what it's worth, when I speak with people more at length I completely own that I have made bad choices. I start out with that. But here...I just kind of figured that was assumed and that it's a "just the facts" thing. I maintain, however, that in the instances I've described illustrate things that concern me about him. That is what this was intended to be about. Not that I'm unwilling to talk about my faults and bad choices but that I do have concerns about his ability to physically maintain children safely. I have other concerns too, such as his lack of bonding with the 3yo but again, I wanted to stick to the subject.

Turning the tables, though, if I were him I would probably be concerned that I might get into a relationship prematurely with another man. That is my concern for myself as well and I am actively doing work (therapy) to try to get to the bottom of some stuff so that I don't have to repeat that pattern, especially now that there are children involved. I consider myself an attentive, loving parent, though. That I honestly do. My kids mean the world to me and anyone who knows me will say that yes, I have made some bad choices but that I sincerely want to do what is right for them. My biggest mistake was hoping that the counseling we were getting would help enough, when in truth the differences between us are just too great and (when I get really honest) he just isn't that into it.

It was in a rather calm time that we conceived our second child. He brought up the idea of a second, and I agreed. Then he started again with passive aggressive behavior (staying out all day surfing when he is supposed to watch the kids so I can work; I'm a freelance designer, had my business for 9 years, work from home but need him to run distraction with the kids so I can focus and not make expensive mistakes). I have to work for a living - he doesn't, and instead of supporting me in this he has made it so incredibly frustrating every day. I don't know when I can call clients, I don't know how my day will go because it's all on his whim. I have a nanny now in the guest room (exchanging board for child care) so that I don't have to worry about that any more. Anyway, I met my husband through mutual friends who so heavily vouched for him and moved in after a long distance relationship. He is a great guy to most people, but that has not been my experience with him.

Blah blah blah I'm just going on and on, sorry. Thank you for your honesty and I appreciate the wringer I've gone through here as I suspect it is good preparation for court.

 

[Ohiogal]

You know what -- there is nothing more at this point. You refuse to see how you have nothing at all for supervised visits. You have no proof that he has neglected your children. Any situation where it would have been neglect YOU are also involved. You complain about him sleeping but YOU were sleeping and yet that is HIS fault. see the problem? You complain that he delayed on the child going to the hospital but then you are saying there was no delay. The child went when the child had to go.

You need to face facts. Dad is going to get unsupervised visitation if he wants it and asks for it unless you have a heck of lot more that MATTERS against him. Because with the above YOU HAVE NOTHING.