Robic speeding ticket in PA

[avid]

I did not get a response to my letter, but the trial date is April 27th at 3:30pm.

The letter wasn't sent certified or anything - kinda surprising, especially since my legal address is in another town, four hours away. (I'm only here temporarily and still have residence there)

I guess there is no speedy trial for PA? This is 65 days after my citation, and 55 days after I entered my plea.

I actually started dating a girl who was a LEO for a small district before deciding that wasn't the way she wanted to 'help' people. Her dad was a cop, so she wanted to follow suit. But she may be helpful with trial

 

[Maestro64]

Here is PA rules on timely trial

234 Pa. Code Rule 1013. Prompt Trial—Municipal Court.
234 Pa. Code Rule 600. Prompt Trial.

and there is this too, the courts have up held the process begins went the ticket is issue.

SUMMARY OFFENSES INVOLVING VEHICLES

There is some case law around this and people mostly lost using this tactic.

This was include in the above link I gave you.

 

[avid]

Thanks Maestro!

I'm not sure if it'll work, but am trying to find out everything I can. You've been a great help.

 

[avid]

I sent in a certified letter last week to the officer since he is the prosecutor in this case, requesting items for discovery, as well as a cover letter indicating that I am requesting a plea. Similiar to what I posted before. Have not heard a reply about it yet.

Got letter in the mail today from the district court postponing the trial until May 4th at the request of the officer. Time is still at 3:30pm though (it's a week later than original). This will be 72 days after the citation was issued.

This seems to apply to this case. (One of your links didn't work, but it referenced this)

Summary offenses involving vehicles:
42 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5553
Summary offenses involving vehicles - 42 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5553 - Pennsylvania Attorney Resources - Pennsylvania Laws

Section 5554, 42 Pa.C.S.A. § 5554, tolls the statute of limitations in Section 5553 under certain defined circumstances. (which do not apply)
Tolling of statute - 42 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5554 - Pennsylvania Attorney Resources - Pennsylvania Laws

As I've said though, this isn't my only defense. I'm just surprised at the whole process though, but hey I'm learning A LOT!

 

[NotGuilty28]

... and I honestly don't belive I was going that fast, especially since I just stopped at a red light, and was accellerating towards another red light.

Just wanted to add that Google Earth was helpful for me with my situation. I was cited for speeding just before I stopped for a light and had a hard time believing that my car was capable of going the speed the officer claimed and then stopping for the red light. I calculated the distance required for my car to stop from the claimed speed. Then I went to Google Earth and found the location I was pulled over. You can view the location from a satallete view or even view the location as if you were driving (not available on all streets). They have a very accurate measurement tool that I used to measure the distance from where he could have first seen me to the intersection I stopped at. Unfortunately, it was possible for my car to stop in time for the light if I was traveling at that speed.

But I was thinking in your case, maybe you could calculate the distance required to reach the speed that the officer claims you were traveling. It might turn out that your vehicle isn't capable of reaching that speed or maybe it is capable but could add doubt.

I believe in math.. and if the math doesn't add up, and all factors are included correctly, it didn't happen. I'm no expert, maybe someone more experienced can comment on how this would hold up in court.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

The local PD is being very unhelpful with my discovery request. A different officer called me last Thursday and said that each incident would be a $15 fee. I took this as anything related to a particular item would be covered under that fee, so I re-wrote the request and condensed it.

Just got a very "unhappy" voicemail from the same officer saying he's made it very clear to me that each item (DOCUMENT) is $15 and if I want anything I'm going to need a court order or supeana or to pay the correct fee

This is what I requested:

I, __________________________ , do hereby request the following information in regards to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Citation Number: XXXXXXXXXXX issued on Month Day/Year by P.O. XXXXXXX.

#1: All documentation made by P.O. YYYYY (####) in the issuance of Citation Number: XXXXXXXXX-X. Including but not limited to: any available notes, records, and log files pertaining to the establishment of the visual reference points used at the location the alleged violation was witnessed, the procedure used to establish the distance between those points, the calibration certificate showing the name, model and serial number of the timing device, the front and back of the Officer’s copy of the citation.

#2: All engineering reports and studies in accordance with 75 Pa.C.S. § 3363 that were performed in the determination of the posted limit, to include, but not limited to, the most recent 85th percentile speed measurement and any collision data used in the determination of the posted limit.

If there are any fees related to this request, please include an itemized bill. In the event that duplication fees for the requested materials exceed $15 for each numbered item listed, please enclose a notice as such and include a description for the excess cost. When this material is available, please contact me at....

Does this sound right? I've definitely "upset" the officer I am dealing with so I will not get any help on that end.

Any suggestions?

I've never heard of them charging for items requested via discovery but you're in PA & I'm in CA & that's not the issue you're inquirig about!

At any rate, I too would be upset too if someone made my job a bit more tedious by asking for an itemized bill. Also, and although I have no idea what your first request looked like but by rewriting & condensing it, might suggest that you had requested 4 or 5 items and ended up reducing those by only listing 2 groups. Even then, and since you requested 2 items, did you include the $30 he requested? Probably not.

If when you spoke to him the first time, and assuming he had your request when he called you, I would assume that he had reviewed your list of items that you requested and that he had qualified those items as being independant of each other, thereby requiring a $15 fee each.

Lastly, how did he end his call? did he say to call him back? Rewrite the request? Send him a check?

Assuming you're willing and able to pay the $15 per item fee, I simply would go to the police station with copies of both requests and checkbook in hand; say something describing what has transpired as a "simple misunderstanding" and ask him how much you have to pay.

Depending on PA rules of discovery, I'm not sure if you would have any recourse by going to court or how much that would delay or even complicate matters for you.

Maybe Maestro64 will read this and come forth with some suggestions. He is, after all, the resident expert about PA and its law enforcement.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

I was thinking in your case, maybe you could calculate the distance required to reach the speed that the officer claims you were traveling. It might turn out that your vehicle isn't capable of reaching that speed or maybe it is capable but could add doubt.

I would probably be one who will actually put together a spreadsheet detailing any and all possibilities that such a formula would put forth. So I'm not taking anything away from your suggestion.

However, I'm not sure how well this will work especially considering AVID's statement about being stopped at a red light and the accelerating towards another red light. Especially since that sort of calculation is based on the premise that a driver pushed it to its maximum capability.

More over, time/distance/speed calculations require us to know 2 of the 3 variables. We know the distance, and he can use the time that the officer notated on the citation (although that is the part he is disputing). And even if he wasn't disputing it, that calculation will only justify he officer's claim.

One can deduce the maximum speed (that you suggested) over a certain "known" distance by knowing the maximum rate of accelaration of the vehicle but that is a variable that Avid would be hard pressed to claim knowlege of especially since he was driving what he described as "a long truck" and his rate of acceleration can vary depending on how big of a load he was carrying if any.

Point is, a defense that includes mathematical calculations, may tend to test the court's patience, and knowing that you want to sway the judge away from siding with the officer, getting on his last nerve might cause more harm than benefit.

I believe in math.. and if the math doesn't add up, and all factors are included correctly, it didn't happen. I'm no expert, maybe someone more experienced can comment on how this would hold up in court.

I am neither a mathematician nor a law expert... But I would venture a guess that the more complicated your reasoning might get, the less chance of you being able to cast any doubt over what a sworn officer may testify to.

I don't know if this has been said here but in my view, questioning the officer about his location in an attempt to cast some doubt as to his ability to pinpoint exactly when Avid passed the "zero point" and when he passed the "95 foot point" would blow the officer's entire calculation out of any "reasonably accurate range".

Example, just by assuming that the officer could have had a 1/8 of a second delayed reaction time to start the timer and 1/8 of a second early reaction to stop it, adds a 2/8 of a second (0.25 seconds) error time to the calculation.

So: 1.63 seconds + 0.25 seconds = 1.88 seconds
Then: (0.018 miles) / 1.88 seconds = 0.009574 miles per second
0.983 miles per second X 60 seconds/minute = 0.5745 miles per minute
0.5745 miles per minute X 60 minutes per hour = 34.46 miles per hour
34.46mph - 25mph speed limit = 9.46mph
Which places him under the 10mph over the limit that is allowed in PA.

If the officer argues to the judge that he has a quicker reaction time than that, then surprise him by throwing your pen at him and see if he catches it... JUST KIDDING... DON'T THROW ANYTHING AT ANYBODY!!!!!

 

[loulblades]

.... the calibration certificate showing the name, model and serial number of the timing device....

Never used discovery but I can say you don't nee to pay for this. The calibration certificate will be presented at the hearing. That gives you less time to look over it of course.

Make sure you are aware of what the officer must provide judicial notice for.

 

[Maestro64]

There is two ways to get documents in PA, a formal discovery request which must be signed by a judge, and generally speaking traffic cases are not afford this request. The second is freedom of information request and they are allowed to charge a fee for this.

If you try to do a FOIR request you find the police will tell you they are not required to provide any of those documents and they will be more than happen to put you in contact with the police department's Lawyer. Last year PA changed its FOIR law which was to make more documents available and make it more clear what the public was to have access too, but it has not.

Personally, in PA is not worth doing any sort of discovery, because there are guidelines on what the police are required to bring to court, which many times they do not bother. However, now that you had this discussion with them they will be prepared.

In PA trial by ambush works well since it allows you to take advantage of the the fact they do not come prepared since they believe most people walk in court with excuses and second if they do have the documents they are usually copies which is not allow and there is PA case law on that subject. The court or the officer will come up with some excuse saying they are not required to have the originals.


Avid, some advice, you should have not have put any of that personal information on this website or any website. no one needs to know names especially your or the officers name and the citation number... the police also know how to use the web and do find these things.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

Avid, some advice, you should have not have put any of that personal information on this website or any website. no one needs to know names especially your or the officers name and the citation number... the police also know how to use the web and do find these things.

Good point Maestro, I have edited the quote I had in my post accordingly...

 

[avid]

Thanks guys

I've edited/deleted some of my posts for that. I wasn't thinking clearly.

At this point I will just ignore the reply from the officer and hope I didn't stir the pot too far. Knowing my luck I probably did.

Is it worth trying to make an anonymous inquiry to the city highway department to find out why that section of highway is posted as what it is? Probably too late now though. But if they don't have the studies done, that section of road should be 35mph and not 25mph.

Is there any reason this other officer was contacting me when he had nothing to do with the case? I do wonder if the original officer may not show up at the trial, and instead this officer will.

Once my eyes feel a little better, I'll do some more digging. I have a few things already that I am prepared to argue during the trial.

 

[Maestro64]

Depending on where you live, some location send one officer to court for all ticket, since most people just show up trying to get out the the points. Also, most officer spend most of their day in the patrol car and whoever is assigned to the desk will answer calls and address matters like this.

You can try arguing that speed limit is not correct. the current rules say that only residential zone can be 25 MPH and if speed limits are not set by statue like 25, 35, 55, and 65 then their must be a traffic survey to justify the speed limits. You can raise this doubt, not sure how much time the judge will give to it. PA is not like CA in that regard, PA assumes all PSL are correct since they restrict the police so much on when they can write a ticket.