Alimony

[crazyeights]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Mi

My husband and I are trying to get an agreement together with the presumption that we can possible do this ourselves and fore-go lawyers. We are basically agreeing on everything except SS. My proposal to him, including CS, equals 45% of his gross income. Also in the proposal is the option for him to give me his portion of the 401k to reduce his monthly payments over 5 years. He is agreement of the figures and the partial lump sum payment BUT he wants me to pay off his debts and possibly the new car payment with what I receive, "otherwise the deal is off". This reduces the SS by almost 31%. He says that this is the best deal that I could get "by his fair nature" and that I would not receive anything close if I went before a judge.

I don't believe him but I guess I could be in for a rude awakening. Would a lawyer consult with me just on this issue and if so, can I trust what they have to say. Meaning, they may tell me what I want to hear and convince me to hire them. I do have the mindset though that if I can find out that I am even close with my figures, that I will most likely have to hire a lawyer but I just want to make sure that I am getting good sound advice to make that decision!! (Gosh, did all that sound logical?)

We have been married 16 years, 2 children (13 & 14). I am 46 and he is 41. I have stayed at home since my youngest was born while my husband received his associates, bachelors and master degrees and worked . Because of all this, we never were able to really connect as a married couple but the "reasons" for this and (before anyone bashes me), the reasons why I didn't work are really non-issues at this point.

I have been trying since last Dec. (before we decided to divorce) to get back into my line of work (Dental field for 13 years prior to quitting), to no avail. I have wanted to go back to work for sometime now. I have even offered to work for my old employer for free if he needed someone to fill in for vacations etc to get some recent experience. I have been turned down for other type of jobs as well. I am thinking that it is due to no recent work experience??? There are so many out there who have work experience and I cannot compete.

I hope to find a part-time job and go to school myself, there is no other way but I am going to need what I have proposed to do so.

Any comments on my situation or anything that I might be "missing" would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Mi

My husband and I are trying to get an agreement together with the presumption that we can possible do this ourselves and fore-go lawyers. We are basically agreeing on everything except SS. My proposal to him, including CS, equals 45% of his gross income. Also in the proposal is the option for him to give me his portion of the 401k to reduce his monthly payments over 5 years. He is agreement of the figures and the partial lump sum payment BUT he wants me to pay off his debts and possibly the new car payment with what I receive, "otherwise the deal is off". This reduces the SS by almost 31%. He says that this is the best deal that I could get "by his fair nature" and that I would not receive anything close if I went before a judge.

I don't believe him but I guess I could be in for a rude awakening. Would a lawyer consult with me just on this issue and if so, can I trust what they have to say. Meaning, they may tell me what I want to hear and convince me to hire them. I do have the mindset though that if I can find out that I am even close with my figures, that I will most likely have to hire a lawyer but I just want to make sure that I am getting good sound advice to make that decision!! (Gosh, did all that sound logical?)

We have been married 16 years, 2 children (13 & 14). I am 46 and he is 41. I have stayed at home since my youngest was born while my husband received his associates, bachelors and master degrees and worked . Because of all this, we never were able to really connect as a married couple but the "reasons" for this and (before anyone bashes me), the reasons why I didn't work are really non-issues at this point.

I have been trying since last Dec. (before we decided to divorce) to get back into my line of work (Dental field for 13 years prior to quitting), to no avail. I have wanted to go back to work for sometime now. I have even offered to work for my old employer for free if he needed someone to fill in for vacations etc to get some recent experience. I have been turned down for other type of jobs as well. I am thinking that it is due to no recent work experience??? There are so many out there who have work experience and I cannot compete.

I hope to find a part-time job and go to school myself, there is no other way but I am going to need what I have proposed to do so.

Any comments on my situation or anything that I might be "missing" would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks!

I do think that you need to at least consult with an attorney on the financial issues. It is not reasonable for you to be required to pay more than 1/2 of the marital debts or to pay off a car that he would be keeping, unless you were keeping other assets in exchange for that. If you were keeping other assets in exchange for taking on that debt, then that should not be a credit against spousal support. You are also entitled to 1/2 of the marital assets as well as any child support or spousal support that a court might order.

 

[crazyeights]

I do think that you need to at least consult with an attorney on the financial issues. It is not reasonable for you to be required to pay more than 1/2 of the marital debts or to pay off a car that he would be keeping, unless you were keeping other assets in exchange for that. If you were keeping other assets in exchange for taking on that debt, then that should not be a credit against spousal support. You are also entitled to 1/2 of the marital assets as well as any child support or spousal support that a court might order.

Thank you for your reply!!

His idea is that he is allowing me "extra" to pay off these debts "to make thinks easier for the both of us. We bought the car last Nov., in his name only. He doesn't want the car payment but he wants us to have reliable transportation but I cannot afford it. I wanted to keep "my old" car and eventually get something a little more reliable. Anyways, if I don't pay off these debts, he will just want to give me less, much less but I feel I am entitled to more.

Maybe I should talk to one or more lawyers to get an opinion(s). I know that SS is a case by case issue but anything close would help me determine if I need to hire a lawyer or not. You're thoughts?

Thank you again!!

 

[Ohiogal]

Thank you for your reply!!

His idea is that he is allowing me "extra" to pay off these debts "to make thinks easier for the both of us. We bought the car last Nov., in his name only. He doesn't want the car payment but he wants us to have reliable transportation but I cannot afford it. I wanted to keep "my old" car and eventually get something a little more reliable. Anyways, if I don't pay off these debts, he will just want to give me less, much less but I feel I am entitled to more.

Maybe I should talk to one or more lawyers to get an opinion(s). I know that SS is a case by case issue but anything close would help me determine if I need to hire a lawyer or not. You're thoughts?

Thank you again!!

I don't think you will end up with 45% of his income for spousal support. You will be responsible for half the marital debt and receive half the marital assets .What are those? Your reasons for not working do matter.

 

[LdiJ]

I don't think you will end up with 45% of his income for spousal support. You will be responsible for half the marital debt and receive half the marital assets .What are those? Your reasons for not working do matter.

The 45% was combined child support and spousal support. I am approximating that it was 25% (two kids) for child support and 20% for spousal support.

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you for your reply!!

His idea is that he is allowing me "extra" to pay off these debts "to make thinks easier for the both of us. We bought the car last Nov., in his name only. He doesn't want the car payment but he wants us to have reliable transportation but I cannot afford it. I wanted to keep "my old" car and eventually get something a little more reliable. Anyways, if I don't pay off these debts, he will just want to give me less, much less but I feel I am entitled to more.

Maybe I should talk to one or more lawyers to get an opinion(s). I know that SS is a case by case issue but anything close would help me determine if I need to hire a lawyer or not. You're thoughts?

Thank you again!!

It certainly wouldn't hurt to talk to a couple of different attorneys.

 

[crazyeights]

I don't think you will end up with 45% of his income for spousal support. You will be responsible for half the marital debt and receive half the marital assets .What are those? Your reasons for not working do matter.

The way I came to this proposal was to take the CS support directly off the top (using the state calculator figure) and then subtracted 25% for SS for five years as I was told that I might be entitled to one year for every three of marriage. And yes, I am taking half the debt and it is my intention to divide up household items evenly even though he says he does not want much, if any of it. I am also taking on a loan (myself) for 25k to be able to continue the mortgage payments that I will have to re-pay back eventually. I am doing this so that the girls do not have to be up-rooted immediately. I don't know how or if this plays into anything here or not. All I do know is that there is a low probability that we will get what we owe. We bought a year ago and put 20% down and things have gotten much worse here since. I want to try to sell eventually but an exact home, minus 600 sq ft. down the street from ours sold for 150k after a year on the market. We owe 190k and we would need more than that as it doesn't include the costs involved of selling a home. If I didn't do this and we couldn't sell, we would probably lose it to foreclosure, which affects him as my name isn't on the mortgage either.

And as far as my reasons for not working, if they are important then I shall share. After we first married we received a settlement from boat accident that we were involved in, (my husband was almost killed, we jumped, he didn't). We bought a home and after having my second child and him wanting to go to school fulltime we decided it would be in the best interest for the girls for me to stay at home because we had the money to do so. Over the years, I also had a home that needed much work, which I did all of. (As a matter of fact, I am replacing the laminate in the kitchen of our new home). He went to school fulltime, worked fulltime plus overtime and was with the girls on the weekend when he wasn't doing homework. The only way for me to work was to put the girls in daycare (no family to speak of to help) and we didn't want that.

There were a few years in between his bachelors and masters that he wasn't in school. During this time and a few years before, I was operating a pretty successful ebay business out of the home. This allowed me to still be home because he was working long hours, to supplement our income. And to be honest with you, I needed something else to do with my life too. Well, towards the end, all I was getting was grief because some of my "duties" were being left behind and I became discouraged and wrapped it up. After that (in 2007) I had many wrist surgeries for cysts and others for female issues. I just had another wrist surgery on both wrists (three times) and underarm (twice) for the same cysts last Feb. and they have returned already. Because of this back then and now, I don't know if I can even handle a job in the dental field as it all pertains to my hands. (And no, I don't believe I am disabled or anything). Anyways, we bought the house last year and I wanted to go back to work!!! We both figured that the girls are old enough to be home alone and it would be nice to have the extra income and for me, to be out of the house! But there is just nothing out there right now, that I could live on anyways. Before, that was never an issue, now it is.

Maybe this is all TMI, but I also was very active with my girls with the Girl Scouts and the Girl Scout organization itself (leader, product sales manager, sales coordinator, and registrar). I became involved with our School Board and district issues and was encouraged to run for the board before we decided to move. I also was very active in their classroom needs, field trips, etc etc and did PTO as the treasurer for one year. Do I wish I had gone back to work earlier? You betcha, as I have recently learned that I could be making upwards to $20 an hour had I never left my field. Now, if I could find a job, as the one interview I did have out of sending out 46 resumes, offered $14. Even that would be great if someone was hiring.

I am not giving up but I need security in this economy also. I didn't sit around for 13 years. If it wasn't for the work I did in the home, we wouldn't have received the 60k profit from the home we sold in the market the way it is. And maybe I should mention that I recently found out that he was having an emotional affair with an employee at his new job for almost a year that ended one month prior to us deciding to move into a bigger home, just one of many as he tells it. And I am not bitter about this but I asked him twice to go to marriage counseling and he said no, and then continued to verbally and mentally abuse me with all the reasons why. And yes, he has threatened physical harm. I just want what the law will allow without asking him for petty crap like lawyer fees, higher percentage of everything for him (debts, additional medical expenses, school expenses etc) because of the disparity of income now and in the future. He has a very secure good paying job and will be able to recover nicely once this is all over. I need to rebuild for the rest of my life and I just want what is fair without all the drama of going into the woulda's and shoulda's. They are gone, regretted or not.

It's a mess but somehow it will all be worked out. I don't want to be going through this but I have no other choice but to remain strong and get on with it. I have endured the almost death if my husband, one daughter who my husband dropped on her head while playing basketball, and the other who almost drowned. I can get through this, I think .

I think that I will call a few lawyers to get their opinions. Thanks!

 

[mary84107]

Options to Avoid Attornies Fees

Here is my two cents:

1. Sacrifice now, not later after the divorce. Sell the house. It is not an asset, it is a liability. Assets are worth more than you owe. You have stated that isn't the case. Or, if he wants to value the house at $190K because that is what you owe, then give it to him as an asset and you will move somewhere else. All the facts you have listed show you cannot afford to support the house payments. You should not be surprised that two households can not be managed by the same salary as before the divorce.
You need to have your children face reality as well. It will cause less stress in your life and their lives if you face it now and not 2-3 years from now. Ruining your credit by running the risk of foreclosure is not a good idea when you are basically just starting a new life for yourself and your kids. Renting is not a bad thing. There is no assurity that Real Estate will recover in the near term. If renting, any household repairs will be paid by your landlord. Plus, renting allows you to move and live where you want or need to be.

2. More SS is not just a WIN for you. Any SS he gives you will be taxable income and you must also pay FICA on it. The taxes and FICA could be 15%-20% and even higher. Don't use gross numbers on how much money you will have to live on and pay bills. It is never as much as you think it will be. Of course, he wants to give you extra SS to pay his debts, he gets to deduct any SS from his income for tax purposes so he doesn't have to pay income taxes on it. Don't fall for it.

3. SS should support your education. Figure out what field you can work in and support yourself and the kids. Plan out what educational requirements are necessary to get to a sufficient level of employability. Figure in the cost of education and whether you would attend full time or part-time. Be honest with yourself. Choose a career where you can truly be employed and make a reasonable wage. Then go for SS that lasts at least the time it will take you to get educated and find a good job. Let's say it is 5 years for college degree and 1 year to find a job assuming you will work part-time while in school. Then request that for SS at a minimum. A lot depends on your ambition and drive, but it is unlikely you will get lifetime SS so you better plan to get educated or trained in something that could support you in the years to come.

4. Don't take on any debts. If you can avoid them, pay them off with marital assets as they are divided. Having the debts will not be good as a starting point for your new life. Reliable transportation can be had for a lot less then most NEW car payments. Face it now, DIVORCE = SACRIFICE.

5. Retirement Income. If your husband has a company retirement plan or a 401K he will end up splitting the value with you. At the time of the divorce you are able to redeem part of this distribution into cash without penalties. You might want to consider doing that to make sure you start out with no debt. WARNING: please don't use this money to ensure you stay in your current house or to pay off a new car with a high owed balance. Both are not good investments.

Maybe this helps. Maybe it doesn't. Lawyers are not good at giving you life advice so be very wary of asking them life related questions. Ask them about family law, how much you can expect, how long you can expect SS to last, how the Court works in your juristriction, etc. But, don't ask them to advise you on how much debt you can sustain, how to divy up the assets, etc.

 

[Proserpina]

Maybe this helps. Maybe it doesn't. Lawyers are not good at giving you life advice so be very wary of asking them life related questions. Ask them about family law, how much you can expect, how long you can expect SS to last, how the Court works in your juristriction, etc. But, don't ask them to advise you on how much debt you can sustain, how to divy up the assets, etc.

I know more than a few who would disagree with that frighteningly overgeneralized statement...though I'll concede that Dr Phil-esque advice is not usually their primary role in life.

(Lawyers are also humans, btw, and do actually have life experience - I know, I know, sometimes TV fools us into thinking that every attorney goes to Law School in Hades and has to clerk with Satan himself as a 3L before they're let loose on us mere mortals, but that isn't actually true)

 

[mary84107]

Generalizations in General

My experience with individual lawyers is minimal. Maybe a half-dozen but I'm just offering up my opinions and I wish at the time I needed lawyers and this advice I had asked the right questions and received better answers.

From my experience if you ask a lawyer about your financial options they will defer you to ask your own financial advisor. If you ask a lawyer about medical issues, they will refer you to your medical advisor. If you need therapy they will suggest you seek out a therapist. They are covering themselves in areas they are certified to "sell" services in. They will advise on legal issues and offer legal opinions but, being honest here, they will probably say even then, that there are no guarantees when you go to court before a judge.

Yes, they might provide some high-level "advice" but it will soon be followed by a "seek out professional advice from an expert" to protect themselves from liability. <shrugging shoulders> But, as I said in my first response, it is my opinion and I was trying to share some of my experiences and recommendations to respond to the original questions.

 

[Proserpina]

My experience with individual lawyers is minimal. Maybe a half-dozen but I'm just offering up my opinions and I wish at the time I needed lawyers and this advice I had asked the right questions and received better answers.

From my experience if you ask a lawyer about your financial options they will defer you to ask your own financial advisor. If you ask a lawyer about medical issues, they will refer you to your medical advisor. If you need therapy they will suggest you seek out a therapist. They are covering themselves in areas they are certified to "sell" services in. They will advise on legal issues and offer legal opinions but, being honest here, they will probably say even then, that there are no guarantees when you go to court before a judge.

Yes, they might provide some high-level "advice" but it will soon be followed by a "seek out professional advice from an expert" to protect themselves from liability. <shrugging shoulders> But, as I said in my first response, it is my opinion and I was trying to share some of my experiences and recommendations to respond to the original questions.

It was more of a very gentle and jovial admonishment ...

 

[LdiJ]

Here is my two cents:

2. More SS is not just a WIN for you. Any SS he gives you will be taxable income and you must also pay FICA on it. The taxes and FICA could be 15%-20% and even higher. Don't use gross numbers on how much money you will have to live on and pay bills. It is never as much as you think it will be. Of course, he wants to give you extra SS to pay his debts, he gets to deduct any SS from his income for tax purposes so he doesn't have to pay income taxes on it. Don't fall for it.

The bolded is inaccurate. Yes, she has to pay federal and state income tax on any spousal support that she receives, but she will not be paying FICA on it.

However I agree with some of the rest of your advice, in particular the advice that she should not attempt to keep the home if she does not have the income to handle the mortgage. Borrowing more money to pay the mortgage payments is not fiscally wise.

 

[mary84107]

Thanks for correction on FICA

Live and learn.

I was told that they had to pay FICA as well. Don't trust me on the financial advice obviously. It makes me feel a little worse since I pay so much in alimony and the ex gets to keep more than I thought.

Note: Married 27 years, paying alimony for 8 years now, no end in sight. Ex is with a same sex partner for 7 years now, bought house together, shared bank accounts, the works. And I get to pay for their life together. Neither one has a regular job, they get paid under the table. I do support same sex marriage but it will probably do me no good in terms of alimony.

 

[CourtClerk]

Live and learn.

I was told that they had to pay FICA as well. Don't trust me on the financial advice obviously. It makes me feel a little worse since I pay so much in alimony and the ex gets to keep more than I thought.

Note: Married 27 years, paying alimony for 8 years now, no end in sight. Ex is with a same sex partner for 7 years now, bought house together, shared bank accounts, the works. And I get to pay for their life together. Neither one has a regular job, they get paid under the table. I do support same sex marriage but it will probably do me no good in terms of alimony.

This thread is not about you. Please take your rants elsewhere.