Faciliting relationship with NCP from a distance

[3junebugs]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? N/A

I have been reading through back posts to get insights on my own case that involves a considerable, but not impossible, amount of driving across two states.

I came across a few that said that the CP should bear the brunt of travel in order to facilitate the relationship between the child and NCP if the NCP is unable and/or unwilling (as in my case) to travel the distance.

But where is the line between facilitating and enabling?

I understand that the most important issue is what is best for the child. But is it a good lesson to teach the child that if you can't or don't want to do something, someone more responsible will do it for you? Or is it just the main objective for the courts to get the child to see the NCP, regardless if it puts more of a burden on one parent? What will motivate the NCP to ever do anything more then the bare minimum if any thing?

Of course I am a little biased since I have been the facilitator for some time So just posting to get everyone's opinions on where their threshold would be - so I can form some realistic expectations.

 

[Zephyr]

Who moved? That is more often than not the determining factor for who provides transportation.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? N/A

I have been reading through back posts to get insights on my own case that involves a considerable, but not impossible, amount of driving across two states.

I came across a few that said that the CP should bear the brunt of travel in order to facilitate the relationship between the child and NCP if the NCP is unable and/or unwilling (as in my case) to travel the distance.

But where is the line between facilitating and enabling?

I understand that the most important issue is what is best for the child. But is it a good lesson to teach the child that if you can't or don't want to do something, someone more responsible will do it for you? Or is it just the main objective for the courts to get the child to see the NCP, regardless if it puts more of a burden on one parent? What will motivate the NCP to ever do anything more then the bare minimum if any thing?

Of course I am a little biased since I have been the facilitator for some time So just posting to get everyone's opinions on where their threshold would be - so I can form some realistic expectations.

I just reviewed your posting history and I am truly confused.

In June dad's visitation was suspended due to a CPS case and the older child he had custody of was removed from his home by CPS and placed with her mother.

A few days ago you posted another thread that made it appear that dad's visitation was proceeding as normal, but that in July the transportation arrangements changed.

Now this thread....

What happened with the CPS case?

 

[3junebugs]

I just reviewed your posting history and I am truly confused.

In June dad's visitation was suspended due to a CPS case and the older child he had custody of was removed from his home by CPS and placed with her mother.

A few days ago you posted another thread that made it appear that dad's visitation was proceeding as normal, but that in July the transportation arrangements changed.

Now this thread....

What happened with the CPS case?

Sorry for the confusion.

Brief time line is - I don't remember all the dates exactly - but late last summer I filed to reduce NCP's summer visitation, modify the transportation arrangements, and to have father affirm he would administer son's medications. We appeared in front of a master in Nov. 2008. The recommendation was to have me drop off to NCP and he bring him back. And for his summer visitation be reduced to the 1st two weeks in July and again in Aug. NCP appealed, hearing was set for a judge for June.

Memorial Day weekend is when DHS got involved so my emergency petition and my outstanding modification overlapped. I was granted temp sole physical and legal with no ordered visitation from emergency. We appeared in front of the judge for the modification I started in 2008 and she denied fathers exceptions because he didn't show but she stipulated that any petition due to the emergency were to supersede the modification since the emergency petition was still open.

The emergency petition was continued for a month to see if NCP could 1) get his hot water / heating issue resolved 2) start to prepare for providing transportation since it had already been ordered and 3) to line up child care since our son's primary babysitter (his daughter) was no longer in the home.

So in July we had another hearing in front of a master in regards to the emergency. At this hearing I proposed that my son go every 2nd and 4th weekend again since heat is a non issue during the summer and no hot water is doable for two nights at a time until our hearing in front of a judge in Dec. Dad also affirmed he would administer our son's medications. There is no extra visitation for holidays, extended weekends etc.

Since it was already determined that transportation would be split - we tried to hash out how it would work best for both of us. I, well my lawyer, offered up every possible solution we could think of and NCP shot down everyone stating it was impossible to do the drive. NCP only solution was for me to keep doing all of the driving. The master would not modify the underlying transportation issue - so NCP finally agreed that I would bring him every 2nd weekend to and from and then he would do it for the 4th, starting Aug 14th. giving NCP 6 more weeks to work out his transportation end.

The DHS case , to my knowledge is still open. The case primarily involved my son's older sister, so they are not in contact with me. Father still does not have heat or hot water in his home as of now. Our hearing in front of a judge is Dec. 7 so it is quite possible that my son will not be there for the winter unless its on a very reduced basis. I still have decided what I would do if he doesn't have his stuff together.

In my case I am the facilitator. I could have surely said, and would have been in my rights to say that I did not wish for my son to go back until he had heat and hot water. But for what? My son would only be upset with me if I requested that. I am a little nervous that we didn't get a date until Dec, however - NCP didn't show up for his visitation on 8/28. Based on teh emails hes been sending my son, he has no intentions of ever coming so his last visitation will be the 2nd week of Nov before court- which shouldn't be to bad - I hope.

I am fed up with always doing the 90-100%. I feel as if I keep doing it, if I back down and say, ok, I'll do all the driving again, then he'll continue to try to jerk me around and control the little things he can. Like when he's home for drop off or pickup.

What I don't understand is how he is ordered to do the driving, but won't. Makes all types of excuse of why he can't. However if I ever said; I am not doing the driving / I don't want to / My car is gone now etc. I would have been ordered back to PA (where jurisdiction remains) so fast and would have gotten into a lot of trouble.

So why can't I be irresponsible??? Because I have already established myself as the more responsible parent. And its expected (in my case) for the NCP to be a difficult. So I feel as though the courts would come down on me 10x harder. Its just a little screwed up.

Who knows, I may go to court in Dec and the judge will look back and see that the NCP didn't show up in front of her 2 years ago and then didn't show in front of the last judge and give him and tongue lashing. But I sincerely doubt that, if the heating issue is resolved, that they would reduce visitation much more then it already has been and I will most likely end up doing all the driving again because I already established that whether I like it or not, I am going to do it if ordered.

 

[LdiJ]

Sorry for the confusion.

Brief time line is - I don't remember all the dates exactly - but late last summer I filed to reduce NCP's summer visitation, modify the transportation arrangements, and to have father affirm he would administer son's medications. We appeared in front of a master in Nov. 2008. The recommendation was to have me drop off to NCP and he bring him back. And for his summer visitation be reduced to the 1st two weeks in July and again in Aug. NCP appealed, hearing was set for a judge for June.

Memorial Day weekend is when DHS got involved so my emergency petition and my outstanding modification overlapped. I was granted temp sole physical and legal with no ordered visitation from emergency. We appeared in front of the judge for the modification I started in 2008 and she denied fathers exceptions because he didn't show but she stipulated that any petition due to the emergency were to supersede the modification since the emergency petition was still open.

The emergency petition was continued for a month to see if NCP could 1) get his hot water / heating issue resolved 2) start to prepare for providing transportation since it had already been ordered and 3) to line up child care since our son's primary babysitter (his daughter) was no longer in the home.

So in July we had another hearing in front of a master in regards to the emergency. At this hearing I proposed that my son go every 2nd and 4th weekend again since heat is a non issue during the summer and no hot water is doable for two nights at a time until our hearing in front of a judge in Dec. Dad also affirmed he would administer our son's medications. There is no extra visitation for holidays, extended weekends etc.

Since it was already determined that transportation would be split - we tried to hash out how it would work best for both of us. I, well my lawyer, offered up every possible solution we could think of and NCP shot down everyone stating it was impossible to do the drive. NCP only solution was for me to keep doing all of the driving. The master would not modify the underlying transportation issue - so NCP finally agreed that I would bring him every 2nd weekend to and from and then he would do it for the 4th, starting Aug 14th. giving NCP 6 more weeks to work out his transportation end.

The DHS case , to my knowledge is still open. The case primarily involved my son's older sister, so they are not in contact with me. Father still does not have heat or hot water in his home as of now. Our hearing in front of a judge is Dec. 7 so it is quite possible that my son will not be there for the winter unless its on a very reduced basis. I still have decided what I would do if he doesn't have his stuff together.

In my case I am the facilitator. I could have surely said, and would have been in my rights to say that I did not wish for my son to go back until he had heat and hot water. But for what? My son would only be upset with me if I requested that. I am a little nervous that we didn't get a date until Dec, however - NCP didn't show up for his visitation on 8/28. Based on teh emails hes been sending my son, he has no intentions of ever coming so his last visitation will be the 2nd week of Nov before court- which shouldn't be to bad - I hope.

I am fed up with always doing the 90-100%. I feel as if I keep doing it, if I back down and say, ok, I'll do all the driving again, then he'll continue to try to jerk me around and control the little things he can. Like when he's home for drop off or pickup.

What I don't understand is how he is ordered to do the driving, but won't. Makes all types of excuse of why he can't. However if I ever said; I am not doing the driving / I don't want to / My car is gone now etc. I would have been ordered back to PA (where jurisdiction remains) so fast and would have gotten into a lot of trouble.

So why can't I be irresponsible??? Because I have already established myself as the more responsible parent. And its expected (in my case) for the NCP to be a difficult. So I feel as though the courts would come down on me 10x harder. Its just a little screwed up.

Who knows, I may go to court in Dec and the judge will look back and see that the NCP didn't show up in front of her 2 years ago and then didn't show in front of the last judge and give him and tongue lashing. But I sincerely doubt that, if the heating issue is resolved, that they would reduce visitation much more then it already has been and I will most likely end up doing all the driving again because I already established that whether I like it or not, I am going to do it if ordered.

Well, you did move and create the distance so that is part of the reason why the original onus of the driving was on you, and why some people would personally feel that you should continue to do the driving.

Does he have no heat and hot water because he is too far behind on his natural gas/heating oil bill or does he have no heat and hot water because his water heater and furnace are shot? If its the former his ability to resolve the issue is much better than if its the latter.

It could honestly be dangerous for your child to spend any time there at all in the winter if there is no heat or hot water. Two things would worry me...1) that there would be no heat at all, or 2) that dad would attempt some alternate method to heat without proper ventilation and put both he and the child at risk.

You clearly don't want to keep the child away from dad entirely, and that is admirable. You clearly want dad to share in the transportation of the child, and under the circumstances, I understand why.

What you have to decide is how you are going to handle the problems that exist.

Personally, I would be trying to get an order where each parent has to be responsible for pickup. That dad has to pick up from you and you have to pick up from him. That way, if dad wants to see his child, he has to make an effort. In the best case scenario, that forces dad to share the transportation, in the worst case scenario, that mean that dad will never see the child because dad will never make the drive. If that happens, then you will have to decide what to do.

I would fight tooth and nail to ensure that the child would NOT be going to dad's for visitation during the winter, unless 1) you have proof that dad's heating and hot water issues are resolved or 2) dad has family in the area and you can get enforceable orders that dad's visitation must take place at a family member's home during the winter.

 

[3junebugs]

Well, you did move and create the distance so that is part of the reason why the original onus of the driving was on you, and why some people would personally feel that you should continue to do the driving.


Does he have no heat and hot water because he is too far behind on his natural gas/heating oil bill or does he have no heat and hot water because his water heater and furnace are shot? If its the former his ability to resolve the issue is much better than if its the latter.

He has no heat and hot water because of both - he is way behind on the bill and apparently the water heater is shot. The house has radiators.

It could honestly be dangerous for your child to spend any time there at all in the winter if there is no heat or hot water. Two things would worry me...1) that there would be no heat at all, or 2) that dad would attempt some alternate method to heat without proper ventilation and put both he and the child at risk.

I agree. That is why the master got us a date as soon as he could before winter really starts. If it gets cold early this year - I will talk to my lawyer about what would happen if I refused visitation.

From what my son has told me, he says that his dad has been using space heaters and they would all sleep in the living room.

You clearly don't want to keep the child away from dad entirely, and that is admirable. You clearly want dad to share in the transportation of the child, and under the circumstances, I understand why.

What you have to decide is how you are going to handle the problems that exist.

Personally, I would be trying to get an order where each parent has to be responsible for pickup. That dad has to pick up from you and you have to pick up from him. That way, if dad wants to see his child, he has to make an effort. In the best case scenario, that forces dad to share the transportation, in the worst case scenario, that mean that dad will never see the child because dad will never make the drive. If that happens, then you will have to decide what to do.

That was added to my modification to have each parents doing the picking up as opposed to dropping off. I truly believe that he will not ever come get him. My lawyer says that after 3 missed visits I could file to TPR, but that seems so drastic and unnecessary to me. Talk about a swift way for my kid to hate me forever.

I would fight tooth and nail to ensure that the child would NOT be going to dad's for visitation during the winter, unless 1) you have proof that dad's heating and hot water issues are resolved or 2) dad has family in the area and you can get enforceable orders that dad's visitation must take place at a family member's home during the winter.

The good thing is that the mother and child who are primarily involved in the DHS case go to court in the middle of Nov. We have a good relationship so she will update me on the status of everything. The daughter is 15 and had been living with Dad since she was 11. Mom was giving temp sole custody too with open visitation. Basically b/c of her age, when she wanted to go she could go. BUT she hasn't gone back since June.

The only family I would feel comfortable with would be my parents because his family is very poor (many have the same problem of not paying bills and lacking utilities) AND my son is barred from seeing 3 cousins because of sexual abuse. His grandmothers house has limited plumbing and rarely has heat either. NCP would not comply if it was said the child can spend the day with you but then sleep at my parents house. He would just not bring him back.

My mom thinks that he is purposefully shooting himself in the foot. Because now that he doesn't' have both kids to be responsible for, hes getting used to it. Since he doesn't' want to just give up, hes trying to make it seem like WE took our children away from him.

 

[LdiJ]

The good thing is that the mother and child who are primarily involved in the DHS case go to court in the middle of Nov. We have a good relationship so she will update me on the status of everything. The daughter is 15 and had been living with Dad since she was 11. Mom was giving temp sole custody too with open visitation. Basically b/c of her age, when she wanted to go she could go. BUT she hasn't gone back since June.

The only family I would feel comfortable with would be my parents because his family is very poor (many have the same problem of not paying bills and lacking utilities) AND my son is barred from seeing 3 cousins because of sexual abuse. His grandmothers house has limited plumbing and rarely has heat either. NCP would not comply if it was said the child can spend the day with you but then sleep at my parents house. He would just not bring him back.

My mom thinks that he is purposefully shooting himself in the foot. Because now that he doesn't' have both kids to be responsible for, hes getting used to it. Since he doesn't' want to just give up, hes trying to make it seem like WE took our children away from him.

Its possible that he is purposely (or subconciously) shooting himself in the foot. Based on the fact that he used the 15 year old to care for your son, while he staying out until all hours, could mean that caring for your son is crimping his style too much now. That is not outside of the realm of possibility.

However he also may be giving up a bit because he doesn't see any solution to his problems.

The space heater thing is almost more scary than no heat. If you can get it so that he is required to have the child sleep at your parent's house, I would recommend that you stay the weekend at your parents for the first few visits, so that you can take the police and go get the child if he refuses to turn him over.