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Evidence for sole legal custody?

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basscatcher

Junior Member
My ex and I were divorced in Minnesota, where we both currently reside.

I am wondering what kind of evidence or supporting documentation would be necessary for me to seek sole legal custody. I should start off by saying that I have met with a lawyer and he thinks that I do have a case, but maybe not an overwhelming one.

Here is the situation as I know to be true:

1) We have joint physical and joint legal custody of our 6 year old son. I would not be seeking to change physical custody as I can't prove physical endangerment.

2) I have proof via copies of medical records that she has tried to block me from receiving any medical information (within the last month). There was a note in the file saying "don't give info to dad as per mom". It was actually very difficult for me to prove to the clinic to give me the information, but eventually they contacted my ex and she admitted that I should have access.

3) In the last month, she has told me (via email, text, and verbal) of a medical condition that our son has. Copies of the medical records do not support her claim, or the timeline that she told me. Example: she sent me a text in the afternoon about a diagnosis and lab tests when the doctor appointment didn't actually happen until that evening at urgent care. I spoke with the doctor where he denied the purported diagnosis and said that no lab tests were ever ordered. This "false" diagnosis caused me to cancel a vacation with my son, which I lost some deposit money. My guess is that she just didn't want me to take my son on vacation.

4) Last year she failed to pay for preschool tuition resulting in the disenrollment of our son. He attended there for 3 months prior to being disenrolled. Records show that no tuition payments were ever made, and as of today, still have not been paid.

5) She has not yet paid for kindergarten tuition (we have to pay extra for everyday kindergarten) which was due two weeks ago. The school told me that she plans to pay it later this week. If she doesn't, it may result in him being disenrolled in the everyday program. I would pay it myself before that happens.

6) She insists that our son needs to go to counseling. She claims that he has picked up on some negative behaviors from other kids and he needs to go to counseling to worth through his issues. Now, I'm generally not opposed to counseling (I've been there myself), but I disagree that he needs it. I've observed that when there are young boys playing around with each other, they may pick up a behavior or two, which usually fades quickly.

7) She told me that his swimming lessons had been canceled due to a swine flu outbreak. I have written confirmation from community ed saying that no such event occurred and lessons are continuing as scheduled.

8) This is not related to custody, but does go to show character: we have a joint consolidated student loan that we are both ordered to make payments on as per the court order. She put the loan into deferment for several years (to attend school, or something), but since then has not made payments. She is in contempt of court on this one, and my credit is in danger if payments are not made. I have made my payments religiously even during the deferment period where the lender did not require payment.

9) I am required to make child support payments to her, which I have made every single month.

10) I have documentation in the form of emails, letters, and cards over the last 13 years (we were divorced 4 years ago) of her extravagant lies. I did not know of these lies when we divorced - I uncovered them later. I'm not a psychologist, but my lay-person research suggests that she suffers from pathological lying and narcissism. I don't know how, if at all, these documents would affect a custody decision. If she continues to lie at this rate, I would imagine that there would be a detrimental affect to our son.

I am not out to take him away from her. I believe that a child should benefit from the love that two *healthy* parents can offer. But it's becoming very clear to me that she is not able to handle his schooling or medical care in a truthful way. At the most, I would seek sole legal custody, so I could handle his affairs, and a majority of parenting time (or at least 50% - I have about 42% now).

Any thoughts / advice is appreciated.
 


basscatcher

Junior Member
Forgot one more thing: she has had her new husband (step-dad) sign for medical visits and treatments. He does not have legal authority to sign!

Thanks for listening!
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
My ex and I were divorced in Minnesota, where we both currently reside.

I am wondering what kind of evidence or supporting documentation would be necessary for me to seek sole legal custody. I should start off by saying that I have met with a lawyer and he thinks that I do have a case, but maybe not an overwhelming one.

Here is the situation as I know to be true:

1) We have joint physical and joint legal custody of our 6 year old son. I would not be seeking to change physical custody as I can't prove physical endangerment.

2) I have proof via copies of medical records that she has tried to block me from receiving any medical information (within the last month). There was a note in the file saying "don't give info to dad as per mom". It was actually very difficult for me to prove to the clinic to give me the information, but eventually they contacted my ex and she admitted that I should have access.

3) In the last month, she has told me (via email, text, and verbal) of a medical condition that our son has. Copies of the medical records do not support her claim, or the timeline that she told me. Example: she sent me a text in the afternoon about a diagnosis and lab tests when the doctor appointment didn't actually happen until that evening at urgent care. I spoke with the doctor where he denied the purported diagnosis and said that no lab tests were ever ordered. This "false" diagnosis caused me to cancel a vacation with my son, which I lost some deposit money. My guess is that she just didn't want me to take my son on vacation.

4) Last year she failed to pay for preschool tuition resulting in the disenrollment of our son. He attended there for 3 months prior to being disenrolled. Records show that no tuition payments were ever made, and as of today, still have not been paid.

5) She has not yet paid for kindergarten tuition (we have to pay extra for everyday kindergarten) which was due two weeks ago. The school told me that she plans to pay it later this week. If she doesn't, it may result in him being disenrolled in the everyday program. I would pay it myself before that happens.

6) She insists that our son needs to go to counseling. She claims that he has picked up on some negative behaviors from other kids and he needs to go to counseling to worth through his issues. Now, I'm generally not opposed to counseling (I've been there myself), but I disagree that he needs it. I've observed that when there are young boys playing around with each other, they may pick up a behavior or two, which usually fades quickly.

7) She told me that his swimming lessons had been canceled due to a swine flu outbreak. I have written confirmation from community ed saying that no such event occurred and lessons are continuing as scheduled.

8) This is not related to custody, but does go to show character: we have a joint consolidated student loan that we are both ordered to make payments on as per the court order. She put the loan into deferment for several years (to attend school, or something), but since then has not made payments. She is in contempt of court on this one, and my credit is in danger if payments are not made. I have made my payments religiously even during the deferment period where the lender did not require payment.

9) I am required to make child support payments to her, which I have made every single month.

10) I have documentation in the form of emails, letters, and cards over the last 13 years (we were divorced 4 years ago) of her extravagant lies. I did not know of these lies when we divorced - I uncovered them later. I'm not a psychologist, but my lay-person research suggests that she suffers from pathological lying and narcissism. I don't know how, if at all, these documents would affect a custody decision. If she continues to lie at this rate, I would imagine that there would be a detrimental affect to our son.

I am not out to take him away from her. I believe that a child should benefit from the love that two *healthy* parents can offer. But it's becoming very clear to me that she is not able to handle his schooling or medical care in a truthful way. At the most, I would seek sole legal custody, so I could handle his affairs, and a majority of parenting time (or at least 50% - I have about 42% now).

Any thoughts / advice is appreciated.
When was the original custody order made and how long have these things been going on?
 

basscatcher

Junior Member
Dogmatique...

The original custody order was issued as a part of our divorce in Nov. 2005. As I stated earlier, the lies have gone on for the last 13 years, but that may not matter in court. The situation with the medical records and swimming lessons is just within the last 1 1/2 months. Since Dec 2008, I have paid her portion of the student loan payment, which she has reimbursed me for (albeit late). I stopped making her payments 2 months ago, so now it is 2 months late.

I don't believe that she has given her husband a POA. Wouldn't that be something that she would have to tell me about?
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
Dogmatique...

The original custody order was issued as a part of our divorce in Nov. 2005. As I stated earlier, the lies have gone on for the last 13 years, but that may not matter in court. The situation with the medical records and swimming lessons is just within the last 1 1/2 months. Since Dec 2008, I have paid her portion of the student loan payment, which she has reimbursed me for (albeit late). I stopped making her payments 2 months ago, so now it is 2 months late.

I don't believe that she has given her husband a POA. Wouldn't that be something that she would have to tell me about?
The lies have gone on for 13 years and the child is in kindergarten? Oh and she does NOT have to tell you she gave her hubby POA. And your credit is going to go downhill if you don't pay the student loan.
 

ProSeDadinMD

Senior Member
I am wondering what kind of evidence or supporting documentation would be necessary for me to seek sole legal custody...

1) We have joint physical and joint legal custody of our 6 year old son. I would not be seeking to change physical custody as I can't prove physical endangerment.
***

I am not out to take him away from her. ...
What's the timeshare on the "joint physical" custody?

As a general rule, if primary placement is with Mom, you're not just going to be able to get "sole legal custody", for the simple reason of "How can the person the child is with the most not have the right to legally consent to ANYTHING for the child?".
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
My ex and I were divorced in Minnesota, where we both currently reside.

I am wondering what kind of evidence or supporting documentation would be necessary for me to seek sole legal custody. I should start off by saying that I have met with a lawyer and he thinks that I do have a case, but maybe not an overwhelming one.

Here is the situation as I know to be true:

1) We have joint physical and joint legal custody of our 6 year old son. I would not be seeking to change physical custody as I can't prove physical endangerment.

2) I have proof via copies of medical records that she has tried to block me from receiving any medical information (within the last month). There was a note in the file saying "don't give info to dad as per mom". It was actually very difficult for me to prove to the clinic to give me the information, but eventually they contacted my ex and she admitted that I should have access.
She is in contempt, but that's not normally something that would trigger a custody change.

3) In the last month, she has told me (via email, text, and verbal) of a medical condition that our son has. Copies of the medical records do not support her claim, or the timeline that she told me. Example: she sent me a text in the afternoon about a diagnosis and lab tests when the doctor appointment didn't actually happen until that evening at urgent care. I spoke with the doctor where he denied the purported diagnosis and said that no lab tests were ever ordered. This "false" diagnosis caused me to cancel a vacation with my son, which I lost some deposit money. My guess is that she just didn't want me to take my son on vacation.
Rotten on her part but not normally something that would trigger a custody change.

4) Last year she failed to pay for preschool tuition resulting in the disenrollment of our son. He attended there for 3 months prior to being disenrolled. Records show that no tuition payments were ever made, and as of today, still have not been paid.
Preschool is not required. Therefore irrelevant to custody.

5) She has not yet paid for kindergarten tuition (we have to pay extra for everyday kindergarten) which was due two weeks ago. The school told me that she plans to pay it later this week. If she doesn't, it may result in him being disenrolled in the everyday program. I would pay it myself before that happens.
Again, its not required therefore it wouldn't be relevant to custody.

6) She insists that our son needs to go to counseling. She claims that he has picked up on some negative behaviors from other kids and he needs to go to counseling to worth through his issues. Now, I'm generally not opposed to counseling (I've been there myself), but I disagree that he needs it. I've observed that when there are young boys playing around with each other, they may pick up a behavior or two, which usually fades quickly.
A judge normally isn't fond of a parent who wants to block a child from having counselling.

7) She told me that his swimming lessons had been canceled due to a swine flu outbreak. I have written confirmation from community ed saying that no such event occurred and lessons are continuing as scheduled.
Again, not relevant to custody.

8) This is not related to custody, but does go to show character: we have a joint consolidated student loan that we are both ordered to make payments on as per the court order. She put the loan into deferment for several years (to attend school, or something), but since then has not made payments. She is in contempt of court on this one, and my credit is in danger if payments are not made. I have made my payments religiously even during the deferment period where the lender did not require payment.

9) I am required to make child support payments to her, which I have made every single month.
Neither thing is relevant to custody.

10) I have documentation in the form of emails, letters, and cards over the last 13 years (we were divorced 4 years ago) of her extravagant lies. I did not know of these lies when we divorced - I uncovered them later. I'm not a psychologist, but my lay-person research suggests that she suffers from pathological lying and narcissism. I don't know how, if at all, these documents would affect a custody decision. If she continues to lie at this rate, I would imagine that there would be a detrimental affect to our son.
That would not have any real relevance regarding custody.

I am not out to take him away from her. I believe that a child should benefit from the love that two *healthy* parents can offer. But it's becoming very clear to me that she is not able to handle his schooling or medical care in a truthful way. At the most, I would seek sole legal custody, so I could handle his affairs, and a majority of parenting time (or at least 50% - I have about 42% now).

Any thoughts / advice is appreciated.
I don't think that your case is strong at all.

Mom has lied to you, and some of her lies might make her in contempt, but other than that, you are not demonstrating that your child has suffered any tangible harm from the lies she has made to you.
 

basscatcher

Junior Member
What's the timeshare on the "joint physical" custody?

As a general rule, if primary placement is with Mom, you're not just going to be able to get "sole legal custody", for the simple reason of "How can the person the child is with the most not have the right to legally consent to ANYTHING for the child?".
The court order currently states that we have joint physical custody, but the parenting time / visitation arrangement gives me about 42% of the time. I realize that seeking sole legal custody without having the majority of the time would be an uphill battle, and a logistical nightmare. I would also be seeking revision of the parenting time to give me a majority (not sure of % though). As I understand, joint physical custody is separate from the parenting time equation.

Ultimately, I would settle to keep the joint custody arrangement and just get at least 50% parenting time. But the problem is that she may continue to lie to me about medical/school topics. I'm just trying to idiot-proof the system and stand up for my rights.

To the earlier poster about the lies continuing for 13 years and our son being in kindergarten: I did not discover the lies until 3 1/2 - 4 years ago after our divorce was finalized. I had gone back through our email account, other files, and documents that my parents had saved (that are in her handwriting). Our son was about 2 years old at the time of our divorce.

I guess my question to this group is whether or not I have enough evidence to seek sole legal custody with a majority of parenting time. If not, what additional evidence may help? I anticipate over the next 2 weeks to uncover more lies. For example: she told me that our son has to have a followup blood test in two weeks to test for Lyme's disease. All of the medical records I have (which are current) do not mention ANYTHING about needing a followup bloodtest, and even less about the possibility of Lyme's disease. Why, you ask? Because there never was any reason to suspect that he might have Lyme's disease. I'm going to let her walk into the hole that she's dug. I could go on for hours...

Thanks for listening...
 

basscatcher

Junior Member
I don't think that your case is strong at all.

Mom has lied to you, and some of her lies might make her in contempt, but other than that, you are not demonstrating that your child has suffered any tangible harm from the lies she has made to you.
Okay, I can accept that, and I actually agree - that's why I'm here, right? I understand that standing in front of a judge saying that she's a liar and can't manage her finances isn't a good argument. So going the court/legal route may not be the answer. Any suggestions on what I could do? I don't want to bluff with empty threats; that won't get me anywhere. And appealing to her good-side... well, that isn't going to happen. The way I see it, my only option may be just to present her with what I know, tell her to knock it off, and try to mutually modify our parenting time so I get 50%. Is that about it? Or are there other options that I'm not considering here?
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Okay, I can accept that, and I actually agree - that's why I'm here, right? I understand that standing in front of a judge saying that she's a liar and can't manage her finances isn't a good argument. So going the court/legal route may not be the answer. Any suggestions on what I could do? I don't want to bluff with empty threats; that won't get me anywhere. And appealing to her good-side... well, that isn't going to happen. The way I see it, my only option may be just to present her with what I know, tell her to knock it off, and try to mutually modify our parenting time so I get 50%. Is that about it? Or are there other options that I'm not considering here?
Ok...let me explain something to you. My ex and I get along great. Our relationship, for me, is like having another brother. We are honestly close friends.

However, he is a bit like your ex. He often lies and he often lies when the truth would be a better answer than the particular lie he has chosen to tell. He is a lot better about it than he used to be, with me, simply because he knows that I know when he lies, and he knows that I am not going to judge him, but he is still that way with others.

My advice to you is to simply get over it. Recognize that she lies and do what you can to ferret out the truth, when the truth matters, but otherwise just let it go. She is never going to change, and she is always going to be your child's mother. Again, you can keep on top of the child's medical records. You can be an involved dad at school so that she cannot lie to you about school issues, and then you won't have to worry about what she does or doesn't tell you, because you will already know the truth.

If she doesn't agree to a 50/50 timeshare, and a change in child support, you are going to be right back in the same boat that you are now...needing to go to court without a "significant change in circumstance" to justify a custody change.
 

dhcracker

Member
I have to say unless these lies justify placing the child in emotional or physical danger and in an apparent and obvious way that the case for sole custody is very weak. A very wise person once told me as far as law is concerned that people have a right to be a bad parent as long as they are not an unsafe parent.

If I were in your shoes I would continually confront her about the lies with evidence and ask her why she is lying to you about your sons health. I would make it clear that lying about medical issues is not acceptable and I might even tell her if she continues it you will file a criminal complaint.

I do think you have a case to seek supervision of custody. In cases like this you can ask the court to appoint a "friend of the court" to investigate the problem and make recommendations on how to correct them. I think if acting like a hawk and being proactive in standing up for your legal right to accurate medical information does not work then I would ask for some kind of oversight. I recently successfully asked for supervision of parental responsibilities for my ex, but my case was pretty strong I was dealing with a near dead beat mom.
 

JKBee

Member
Perhaps the best way to handle this is to accept your ex is your ex for a very good reason.

What really matters is your relationship with your child. Spending a good, quality time, loving him, and just having a good father/son relationship is the best you can concentrate on.

As he grows up, he will soon enough get a good, firsthand introduction to his mother's lies. If you are honest about things with him, don't bad-mouth his mother in front of nor around him, and treat him when he is with you as you would like your ex to treat him, he will eventually see this. And be better off with your support, emotionally.

Kids don't stay young for very long, and it will seem like just yesterday that he was in kindergarten soon as you are watching his bride walk down the isle.
 

CJane

Senior Member
Here's the deal(s):

  • You need a significant change in circumstances - and you don't.
  • Nothing you've stated is going to have such a dramatic and negative impact on the child that a change in custody/parenting time would be warranted.
  • Preschool is not required. No one will care that child did not attend.
  • Every day kindergarten is not required. No one will care.
  • It's YOUR responsibility to be involved in your child's medical care. The clinic cannot legally block you from accessing records NO MATTER WHAT MOM SAYS.
  • Mom lying about proposed medical care is NOT something that will be prevented if you have sole legal custody. She will not be barred from taking the child to the doctor.
  • Likewise, the educational issues you're having will not be prevented. You will not be able to FORCE her to take the child to non-mandatory schooling on her time.
 

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