Update...

[Raisingmaddy]

What is the name of your state -Washington

I hope it's ok I started a new thread for this. In my previous thread I went to court for a Child Support Modification, grandparents raised their hand and asked to speak.

They asked the judge if they can pick up kiddos Friday evening at 7 pm since Dad doesn't make it to town usually until Saturday morning if at all. They told the judge that I never allow them to see kiddos on my time, so they would like to have Dads time until he gets here. I objected to this, however the Judge told them YES. It was unbelievable.

Since then, Grandparents have been calling several times a night, requesting kiddos on my time as well and threatening me with court and documentation if I do not give them what they want. They now seem to think they have all kinds of rights. I have not answered, or returned any of the phone calls.

Last Friday, Grandpa showed up to pick up kiddos. He held up a tape recorder and said ridiculous things in it about me...on my front porch, in front of kiddos. I decided at that moment, I am DONE getting trampled on by them. They have crossed WAY too many lines.

So...I had an appointment yesterday with an attorney. Actually with two, both attorneys in the office were so appalled by what actually happened in court they both chimed in. They told me I DO NOT have to allow Grandparents to pick up kiddos Friday night if they are not either:
1) Driving them directly to Dad almost 5 hours away or
2) Dad is sitting at Grandparents house and they are taking kiddos to him.

They said that what the judge stated is ABSOLUTELY not allowed in Washington, and he ulitmately gave them Grandparent visitation and I do not have to follow his verbal ruling. What he did was wrong, and so the judge of course did not reduce his ruling to a written order.

So basically, If Dad is not coming to town until say, Saturday...the attorneys told me when Grandparents show up at the door to pick up kiddos I can and should refuse them to pick up kiddos, and tell them Dad can pick them up in the morning, and if Dad isn't coming to town at all, they are out of luck. They said technically, if Dad doesn't show up Friday evening himself to pick them up, I don't even have to allow Dad to have them that weekend (they were not recommending this, just sayin). However, I would NEVER do that. It is important to me and kiddos that they get to see Dad. Even if Dad showed up on Sunday, he gets the kids, period. I'm not now, and never will refuse kiddos to Dad for his weekend.

Believe me, I wish things were different with the Grandparents because I WANT the kiddos to have a great relationship with them however, it's not possible because they are extremely hostile EVEN in front of the kids every chance they get.

I was concerned because I know the first thing GP will do if refused is call the police and they will try to file contempt against me. The attorneys told me not to worry about it, and said when the police show up to show them a copy of my parenting plan and ask the GP where theirs is...police will tell them they can't do anything, no written order.

And when they try to file contempt charges, the attorneys told me their entire office will go to bat for me to make sure it doesn't happen because they are NOT transporting the kiddos to Dad, they are utilizing GP visitation and that is not allowed. Then the attorneys said they will file a Motion in regard to this stating the above.

All I can say is...now I'm really scared!!!

 

[liandrajade]

dont you dare be scared!!! these grandparents are NOT legally entitled to anything and what happened to you was such an abuse of law and ethics it is pathetic...

1st off, see if your attorneys can find some way to show the judge is being prejudicial and get him to recuse himself off the case, he is breaching so many legal ethics and laws its ridiculous...

2nd off-start researching the domestic laws of washington state...you know what...send me a pm and IM GOING to help you look stuff up, no way in hell are we going to let this crap go on....send me whatever court orders you have, I'll look at and come up with things you can ask the attorneys to look up, obviously they are the experts but sometimes another pair of eyes will pick up things you didnt think of....My friends Rushia & LDKhope were such a HUUUUUUUGEEEE help, i couldnt have gotten thru half the crap i did without them both, Rushia's case was almost exactly like mine, ldk also is going thru a crappy GPV case in Ohio.....

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state -Washington

I hope it's ok I started a new thread for this. In my previous thread I went to court for a Child Support Modification, grandparents raised their hand and asked to speak.

They asked the judge if they can pick up kiddos Friday evening at 7 pm since Dad doesn't make it to town usually until Saturday morning if at all. They told the judge that I never allow them to see kiddos on my time, so they would like to have Dads time until he gets here. I objected to this, however the Judge told them YES. It was unbelievable.

Since then, Grandparents have been calling several times a night, requesting kiddos on my time as well and threatening me with court and documentation if I do not give them what they want. They now seem to think they have all kinds of rights. I have not answered, or returned any of the phone calls.

Last Friday, Grandpa showed up to pick up kiddos. He held up a tape recorder and said ridiculous things in it about me...on my front porch, in front of kiddos. I decided at that moment, I am DONE getting trampled on by them. They have crossed WAY too many lines.

So...I had an appointment yesterday with an attorney. Actually with two, both attorneys in the office were so appalled by what actually happened in court they both chimed in. They told me I DO NOT have to allow Grandparents to pick up kiddos Friday night if they are not either:
1) Driving them directly to Dad almost 5 hours away or
2) Dad is sitting at Grandparents house and they are taking kiddos to him.

They said that what the judge stated is ABSOLUTELY not allowed in Washington, and he ulitmately gave them Grandparent visitation and I do not have to follow his verbal ruling. What he did was wrong, and so the judge of course did not reduce his ruling to a written order.

So basically, If Dad is not coming to town until say, Saturday...the attorneys told me when Grandparents show up at the door to pick up kiddos I can and should refuse them to pick up kiddos, and tell them Dad can pick them up in the morning, and if Dad isn't coming to town at all, they are out of luck. They said technically, if Dad doesn't show up Friday evening himself to pick them up, I don't even have to allow Dad to have them that weekend (they were not recommending this, just sayin). However, I would NEVER do that. It is important to me and kiddos that they get to see Dad. Even if Dad showed up on Sunday, he gets the kids, period. I'm not now, and never will refuse kiddos to Dad for his weekend.

Believe me, I wish things were different with the Grandparents because I WANT the kiddos to have a great relationship with them however, it's not possible because they are extremely hostile EVEN in front of the kids every chance they get.

I was concerned because I know the first thing GP will do if refused is call the police and they will try to file contempt against me. The attorneys told me not to worry about it, and said when the police show up to show them a copy of my parenting plan and ask the GP where theirs is...police will tell them they can't do anything, no written order.

And when they try to file contempt charges, the attorneys told me their entire office will go to bat for me to make sure it doesn't happen because they are NOT transporting the kiddos to Dad, they are utilizing GP visitation and that is not allowed. Then the attorneys said they will file a Motion in regard to this stating the above.

All I can say is...now I'm really scared!!!

I am glad that the attorneys backup up what we were telling you here about how illegal the judge's actions were. You have no reason to be scared. You have attorneys that are willing to go to bat for you.

These particular grandparents need a major comeuppance, and its time they got one.

Again, do NOT be scared. Be strong.

 

[liandrajade]

ooh ooh get a copy of the transcript from that hearing if possible...theres your proof that the judge said whatever....and also letting a person speak in a case they are not a party to in any way shape or form is illegal, they werent brought up as a witness etc....

if i think of anything else i'll let you know...

 

[Zephyr]

Do you know beforehand is dad is going to be present at pick up times? If so...maybe just not be home if dad isn't going to be there.

 

[Raisingmaddy]

Do you know beforehand is dad is going to be present at pick up times? If so...maybe just not be home if dad isn't going to be there.

This is a very good question. The thoughts on this so far are: Dad is to notify me and let know know if GP will be picking up kiddos at 7. Ex does this usually by e-mail. The attorney told me to respond to him and casually ask him if he will be in town late tonight, or the next day.

Was told if ex says late tonight, tell him I would be happy to wait for him to pick up kiddos. If it is too late, and he isn't getting into town till about midnight to tell him to pick up kiddos first thing in the morning at my house.

And of course if he says he will be there the next day, tell him he can pick them up when he gets into town. Of course if he isn't coming at all and sends his parents to pick up kiddos they don't get them at all like they think.

Since they are not "transporting kiddos directly to Dad, they can't pick them up" per the attorney.

He also said when GP show up at the door to ask them "Are you transporting kiddos to (Dads town) or is he at your house right now" the answer to both would be nope, they do not get the kids. They will call the police, police will show up and I have court order, they have nothing. They will be sent away.

My biggest fear is being found in contempt but the attorneys said it's not contemt at all if I refuse them because they are not transporting kiddos directly to him.

Of course, Dad and GP will catch on and lie about when he is coming to town if at all. I may have to let GP pick them up on some occassions because of this. The attorney said after the kiddos get home they will mention if they saw Dad or not, I don't ask them, but they always do. The kiddos even mention every time when Dad showed up. I didn't want to go this route, because I want to kids to be left out completely, the attorney actually told me to casually ask them if/when Dad was there. I shouldn't have to do that at all since they provide that info on their own (not intentionally, they just chat about everything).

The attorney said a couple times of them doing this, we will file a motion about it so it can't continue...

I'm so nervous because the Judge said you MUST do this, and this....
Attorneys say it's illegal and I don't have to do it..

Next time we are in court over it, because we will be...I am afraid the Judge is going to be VERY angry and take it out on me.

I'm gonna do it though cuz I am sick and tired of them stomping on me just because they think they can. Thanks again to EVERYONE for all of your help, I would be a wreck if it weren't for all of you!!!!

 

[LdiJ]

This is a very good question. The thoughts on this so far are: Dad is to notify me and let know know if GP will be picking up kiddos at 7. Ex does this usually by e-mail. The attorney told me to respond to him and casually ask him if he will be in town late tonight, or the next day.

Was told if ex says late tonight, tell him I would be happy to wait for him to pick up kiddos. If it is too late, and he isn't getting into town till about midnight to tell him to pick up kiddos first thing in the morning at my house.

And of course if he says he will be there the next day, tell him he can pick them up when he gets into town. Of course if he isn't coming at all and sends his parents to pick up kiddos they don't get them at all like they think.

Since they are not "transporting kiddos directly to Dad, they can't pick them up" per the attorney.

He also said when GP show up at the door to ask them "Are you transporting kiddos to (Dads town) or is he at your house right now" the answer to both would be nope, they do not get the kids. They will call the police, police will show up and I have court order, they have nothing. They will be sent away.

My biggest fear is being found in contempt but the attorneys said it's not contemt at all if I refuse them because they are not transporting kiddos directly to him.

Of course, Dad and GP will catch on and lie about when he is coming to town if at all. I may have to let GP pick them up on some occassions because of this. The attorney said after the kiddos get home they will mention if they saw Dad or not, I don't ask them, but they always do. The kiddos even mention every time when Dad showed up. I didn't want to go this route, because I want to kids to be left out completely, the attorney actually told me to casually ask them if/when Dad was there. I shouldn't have to do that at all since they provide that info on their own (not intentionally, they just chat about everything).

The attorney said a couple times of them doing this, we will file a motion about it so it can't continue...

I'm so nervous because the Judge said you MUST do this, and this....
Attorneys say it's illegal and I don't have to do it..

Next time we are in court over it, because we will be...I am afraid the Judge is going to be VERY angry and take it out on me.

I'm gonna do it though cuz I am sick and tired of them stomping on me just because they think they can. Thanks again to EVERYONE for all of your help, I would be a wreck if it weren't for all of you!!!!

The judge may try to stomp on you. However, if the judge didn't reduce it to a written order, so that it could be appealed, the judge really cannot stomp on you. You will also have an attorney with you who knows very well what your rights are, and that attorney will make it clear to the judge that any illegal orders will be appealed.

The judge shouldn't have even allowed the grandparents to speak like that in court and to make any requests. That alone was totally improper and completely violated all kinds of laws, ethics and rules.

That is why the attorneys are being so definitive about this. The judge is hoping you will do what he ordered, but the judge knows that he cannot hold you to it.

 

[liandrajade]

i found something......

youre the custodial parent right? im on the washington state laws site and found this on their site...it appears new legislation has been enacted repealing the old law that was declared unconstitutional under troxel and it has been amended:

Page Not Found

it seems like the standing to get visitation has been brought up kinda high from what i have been able to read....im still browsing thru it....looks like the revisions to state law were made in 2/09, i have to find out if it is in effect and has been passed yet....i am having a hard time finding anything legal to back up what that judge did in trying to tell you who can pick up the kids when you were their for CHILD SUPPORT!! the only way the GP's should be able to do anything is if they PETITION for it....

you really really really need to get a copy of that transcript asap, that is going to be prima facie evidence that the judge made an order that is a complete violation of your rights to due process....

you also need to find out who is the supervising judge is for the family court judge over your case...you need to make a complaint to the supervising judge that the presiding judge issued an order whether it be verbal or written that is not only unethical but illegal in allowing a person NOT a party to the proceeding to speak and ASK for relief in a proceeding they havent even initiated!

i am still looking up the civil practice laws and rules regarding how proceedings are handled and things like that....i'll let you know if i find anything else....

edit: found this also on another legal site: there is NO visitation law for grandparents in the state of washington it would appear, the above bills is in legislature and has NOT been passed into law...sounds like good news for you....but im still researching....

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/under-wa-state-law-do-grandparents-have-right-to-v-7484.html

http://grandparents.about.com/od/grandparentsrights/qt/Grandparent_Rights_in_Washington.htm

 

[tornado88]

I am assuming that since you had to deal with the grandparents last Friday eve that this is your weekend, correct? So you won't have to deal with this issue again until next Friday. Ignore the grandparents until then.

Glad to hear you have spoken with attorneys. They sound like they will really help you out. Keep us posted.

 

[ariastar]

Do you know beforehand is dad is going to be present at pick up times? If so...maybe just not be home if dad isn't going to be there.

She shouldn't have to run from her own home.

 

[LdiJ]

youre the custodial parent right? im on the washington state laws site and found this on their site...it appears new legislation has been enacted repealing the old law that was declared unconstitutional under troxel and it has been amended:

Page Not Found

it seems like the standing to get visitation has been brought up kinda high from what i have been able to read....im still browsing thru it....looks like the revisions to state law were made in 2/09, i have to find out if it is in effect and has been passed yet....i am having a hard time finding anything legal to back up what that judge did in trying to tell you who can pick up the kids when you were their for CHILD SUPPORT!! the only way the GP's should be able to do anything is if they PETITION for it....

you really really really need to get a copy of that transcript asap, that is going to be prima facie evidence that the judge made an order that is a complete violation of your rights to due process....

you also need to find out who is the supervising judge is for the family court judge over your case...you need to make a complaint to the supervising judge that the presiding judge issued an order whether it be verbal or written that is not only unethical but illegal in allowing a person NOT a party to the proceeding to speak and ASK for relief in a proceeding they havent even initiated!

i am still looking up the civil practice laws and rules regarding how proceedings are handled and things like that....i'll let you know if i find anything else....

edit: found this also on another legal site: there is NO visitation law for grandparents in the state of washington it would appear, the above bills is in legislature and has NOT been passed into law...sounds like good news for you....but im still researching....

under WA state law do grandparents have right to visitiation with grandchildren - Family - Avvo.com

Grandparents Rights in Washington - Grandparents Rights by State

Liandrajade....you can stop researching.

WA's gpv laws were overturned with Troxel. First by WA's own Supreme Court and then with backing by the USSC.

Their legislature wrote new laws. They were overturned again by the WA Surpreme Court.

Their legislature then wrote new laws again, and they were again overturned by the WA Supreme Court.

No new legislation has passed since then...and no bills have made it far enough since then to be even remotely close to passing.

 

[liandrajade]

Liandrajade....you can stop researching.

WA's gpv laws were overturned with Troxel. First by WA's own Supreme Court and then with backing by the USSC.

Their legislature wrote new laws. They were overturned again by the WA Surpreme Court.

Their legislature then wrote new laws again, and they were again overturned by the WA Supreme Court.

No new legislation has passed since then...and no bills have made it far enough since then to be even remotely close to passing.

yeah i kinda figured that out after 2 hours...lol.... but hey i like the practice and i have nothing better to do as you can see by me being on here so late....

 

[CJane]

i am having a hard time finding anything legal to back up what that judge did in trying to tell you who can pick up the kids when you were their for CHILD SUPPORT!! the only way the GP's should be able to do anything is if they PETITION for it....

you really really really need to get a copy of that transcript asap, that is going to be prima facie evidence that the judge made an order that is a complete violation of your rights to due process....

Here's the deal though - the judge isn't stupid. When a judge makes a ruling that completely violates a parent's rights to due process, and makes rulings in favor or petitions that were never filed, etc (and believe me, I have some experience in this area), they DON'T reduce it to a written order. Sometimes EVER, sometimes not for months and months.

If it's not a final order, it can't be appealed. Sometimes, if it's a "docket order" (wrong terminology, but all I can come up with) then it's still not a final order, but IS in writing and can be enforced (this is what happened to me) but cannot be appealed.

This way, by the time it's reduced to writing, or the parent whose rights were violated gathers their wits and money and gets an attorney, very often a new status quo has been established.

 

[LdiJ]

Here's the deal though - the judge isn't stupid. When a judge makes a ruling that completely violates a parent's rights to due process, and makes rulings in favor or petitions that were never filed, etc (and believe me, I have some experience in this area), they DON'T reduce it to a written order. Sometimes EVER, sometimes not for months and months.

If it's not a final order, it can't be appealed. Sometimes, if it's a "docket order" (wrong terminology, but all I can come up with) then it's still not a final order, but IS in writing and can be enforced (this is what happened to me) but cannot be appealed.

This way, by the time it's reduced to writing, or the parent whose rights were violated gathers their wits and money and gets an attorney, very often a new status quo has been established.

Which is why its so great that she got an attorney (actually two in the same firm) that were so adamant about it being illegal and sincere about intending to help her. It happened rapidly so no status quo has been established.

I have a real problem with judges who do this.

 

[Raisingmaddy]

Ahh yes, it has been a nice, quiet weekend. The kiddos are with me this weekend so I shouldn't have to deal with any drama till next Friday.

If Dad comes Friday to pick them up, that would be fabulous. I do not think that is the way its gonna go though.

I'm thinking it's gonna go like this: I get an e-mail from Dad Thursday evening telling me he can't make it on time, and his parent's will be picking up kiddos for him Friday at 7.

I'm gonna respond and ask him if he plans on being in town late Friday evening, or Saturday morning and see what he says. It doesn't matter either way, it's just proof for me for the judge that the grandparents were not "transporting kiddos directly to him".

Then, Friday night at 7 GP will show up at my house with their stupid voice recorder in hand again. I haven't decided if I'm gonna even answer the door yet, not sure on that one. Either way they will not be getting kiddos based on Dads anwer. They will immediately call the police, a sheriff will show up at my house. I will have my parenting plan in hand, they will have nothing and be sent away.

When Dad gets into town he can pick kiddos up first thing Saturday morning. The will be ready to go as usual.

Then I'm sure they will file contemt of court papers monday morning. And the Drama continues.....

On another note, it was funny because my attorney said she is going to start writing a brief on GP visitation and how it isn't allowed whatsover, just for the Judge. She said she wanted to "refresh his memory" on the law.