eBay fraud - My legal options?

[AngryMan]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Arizona

I'm going to cut and paste this from another forum I posted it on instead of typing it all out again. I got very vague information there. Maybe you folks can help me.

In November, I paid a seller for a product they never shipped. I have the PayPal receipt, I have the USPS tracking number confirming it never shipped. I contacted eBay and PayPal and they told me to try and work it out with the seller because it may just be a misunderstanding. When she would not respond, I contacted them again, and was told it was beyond the 45 day period in which I could dispute the transaction. They basically made me go away long enough so that they wouldn't have to deal with it. The person has 10,000+ sales, so eBay is in no hurry to lose future posting fees just because a few people get ripped off now and then.

So contacting the scammer, eBay, and PayPal have produced nothing. I went on to file a police report with the department in her area. The fraud detective assigned to the case has tried to contact her numerous times, but she just ignores him and doesn't return his calls, nor will she respond to me. The detective says he can do nothing about it (Really? What a great way to avoid punishment for a crime - just ignore the police and they give up!) unless I fly across the country and press charges in person.

Here's my problem. I'm disabled, and physically incapable of traveling 2500 miles to meet with the magistrate in person to file charges for a warrant.

Has anyone ever successfully busted one of these online thieves? Does anyone out there know of a law or other procedure so that I can bust this thief and get my money back? Or at least bust her so she can't do this to people any more? I'm praying that there's some type of justice out there for people in my position. I can't believe all she has to do is ignore the police and get away with it, and there's nothing I can do because I physically can't make the trek across the U.S..

I'd be eternally thankful if someone knows of some kind of law that will help me with this situation. If there's anyone in the internet fraud busting business, I'd love to hear from you.


Update: I can't find a way to respond to an answer for clarification, so I'll add this here. The transaction was in the United States (both myself and the thief). I just got off the phone after another long conversation with their "customer service". They continue to insist that they will not accept any kind of dispute because I did not file one within 45 days, even though eBay themselves told me after a month to continue trying to contact the seller (who just ignores communication and continues selling), which stalled me just long enough to cross the 45 day period. I tried explaining this to the CS rep, but he just kept repeating the same thing. No disputes after 45 days, even though they told me themselves to go try and work it out with the seller first. Having the fraud detective from the thief's city contact them will change nothing. Payment was made via PayPal with funds already in the account (there's no direct credit or debit transaction I can dispute with my bank). PayPal gave me the exact same story. No disputes accepted after 45 days, even though they too told me to continue trying to work with the seller, the same trick eBay pulled to stall long enough that they don't have to do anything now.

This is ridiculous. There has to be some kind of legal action i can take against this person since eBay and PayPal refuse to show any integrity whatsoever. Again, I'm disabled, and can't travel the length of the country to her city to press charges. Please, if anyone out there knows of a legal procedure that can get this resolved, I'm dying to know. eBay, PayPal, and the local police in her area all basically say their hands are tied.

And a bit of followup information some people asked for clarification on:

The PayPal was just a straight transfer from my PayPal account - from funds added months before. There's no single transaction like a credit card that I can report as fraudulent. I have the PayPal receipt, USPS tracking number confirming the label she printed online was never shipped (re-confirmed by phone, I had them check their computers), and can provide the police report if needed, but eBay and PayPal won't listen. I've argued endlessly, they refuse to hear it after the 45 day dispute limit, even though they pushed me beyond the limit. The seller is not a business as far as I know. I have a name and address from PayPal and the police. I'm very much interesting in finding out if I can press charges from here since my disability makes it impossible for me to travel across the country. The seller printed a label electronically, but never shipped the parcel, confirmed by the track# and USPS by phone. The seller has the Power Seller status with over 10,000 feedback, something like 99.6% good or whatever. She responded only once - after my first inquiry after a month - saying she'd have to "find another one", inadvertently admitting she sold something she didn't have. Hasn't responded to me since, and is ignoring the detective in her town I filed the case with. He says he can't do anything more unless I travel there, which isn't possible due to my disability. I gave negative feedback but it's lost in the dozens of sales a day and likely won't be noticed, plus it doesn't return the stolen money or bust the thief.


I know it's a bit of a read, but if anyone knows what my options are, I really need to know. I don't much care about the money - it wasn't much (around $15) - but the thief does, which means I want to hit her with whatever is reasonable by law so she doesn't do this to someone else. eBay and PayPal refuse to do a thing. It's beyond 45 days. I've argued endlessly, they won't budge. The detective is getting on my nerves just letting her ignore him like this and doesn't seem interested in the case. I need to know if I can file charges from here (I'm in AZ, she's in GA), and what I need to tell the court I'm charging her with. Whatever it takes to return the stolen money and whatever else. If she gets some kind of probation or something from conducting business online, so be it. She thinks if she just keeps ignoring this, it will go away, and I'm trying to prove it won't work.

Is there a way for a disabled person to bust this thief from here? Or will she get away with it simply by ignoring me and the police?

 

[swalsh411]

I suggest you let it go. If paypal/ebay is of no help because the deadline has passed, and the police can't/won't help either, and you won't travel to sue, there is nothing more to be done, especially over $15. How much time do you expect a police detective to spend over $15? What other cases do you want him to not work on because of $15?

I am confused about something though, how do you have a USPS tracking number for something that was never shipped?

 

[FlyingRon]

If you're going to play ebay/paypal, you're going to have to play by their rules. You are confused about what ebay/paypal told you. I guarantee they didn't tell you to wait 45 days. They do advise you to contact the seller before filing a complaint, but an "Item Not Recieved" complaint filed timely would have resulted in a prompt refund if the seller could not have provided electronic proof of delivery. Yelling at Ebay or Paypal isn't going to help. They were the one who lost your item, they don't have your $15. Your only options are against the seller.

At this point there's probably nothing at $15, that is worth doing. You can try a complaint with the FTC as the mail order laws pretty much DO apply here.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

In theory, you can sue in Arizona and claim that an AZ court holds personal jurisdiction over a GA defendant simply due to the 10,000 transactions.

Unfortunately, you will likely lose at the trial level based on Holland v. Hurley,221 Ariz. 552, 212 P.3d 890. In Holland, the court found that AZ did not have personal jurisdiction over Hurley based on an Ebay transaction. The argument was that eBay is an active website, conferring personal jurisdiction in any state. The court held that the defendant did not control the website, so was not considered to have sufficient contacts, ties, and relations to the forum state.

In your case, because the defendant has 10,000 transactions, it is likely that many of them were in AZ, which would confer personal jurisdiction.

Hurley also shows that the burden of proof of personal jurisdiction is on the plaintiff, so discovery would be needed to show that a substantial number of transactions occurred within AZ.

A few things to note:

Holland was chasing payment for a $16,000 Cadillac. I suspect the legal fees exceeded that figure. On your side, Hurley was only found to have sold the one car to an AZ resident, and specific jurisdiction was not found because he had not specifically marketed towards AZ.

You stated that the money was not the issue, and you wanted to teach these people a lesson. I suspect defending against an appeals level court battle 2500 miles away will surely teach them not to mess with you again.

Personally, I wouldn't expend the tens of thousands of dollars on a lawsuit to recover $15, but that's only my opinion.

 

[AngryMan]

I suggest you let it go. If paypal/ebay is of no help because the deadline has passed, and the police can't/won't help either, and you won't travel to sue, there is nothing more to be done, especially over $15. How much time do you expect a police detective to spend over $15? What other cases do you want him to not work on because of $15?

I am confused about something though, how do you have a USPS tracking number for something that was never shipped?

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. "It's not that much money, just let it go" is what I keep hearing. Same thing this thief is saying, which is why she thinks she'll get away with it.

I have a USPS tracking number because she notified the post office online to expect the package for delivery (printed the label with my information and the dimensions). She just never shipped it.

In theory, you can sue in Arizona and claim that an AZ court holds personal jurisdiction over a GA defendant simply due to the 10,000 transactions.

Unfortunately, you will likely lose at the trial level based on Holland v. Hurley,221 Ariz. 552, 212 P.3d 890. In Holland, the court found that AZ did not have personal jurisdiction over Hurley based on an Ebay transaction. The argument was that eBay is an active website, conferring personal jurisdiction in any state. The court held that the defendant did not control the website, so was not considered to have sufficient contacts, ties, and relations to the forum state.

In your case, because the defendant has 10,000 transactions, it is likely that many of them were in AZ, which would confer personal jurisdiction.

Hurley also shows that the burden of proof of personal jurisdiction is on the plaintiff, so discovery would be needed to show that a substantial number of transactions occurred within AZ.

A few things to note:

Holland was chasing payment for a $16,000 Cadillac. I suspect the legal fees exceeded that figure. On your side, Hurley was only found to have sold the one car to an AZ resident, and specific jurisdiction was not found because he had not specifically marketed towards AZ.

You stated that the money was not the issue, and you wanted to teach these people a lesson. I suspect defending against an appeals level court battle 2500 miles away will surely teach them not to mess with you again.

Personally, I wouldn't expend the tens of thousands of dollars on a lawsuit to recover $15, but that's only my opinion.

I've never sued anyone before, but how would this go to a trial, and how would it end up costing tens of thousands of dollars? Isn't it a small claims matter? I can't just take my documents to court (PayPal receipt, USPS tracking number, police report) and show them an item was paid for but never shipped, and that the person won't so much as respond? How much would the legal fees for this be? I don't see why I would need a lawyer. Can she be held responsible for my fees if it's proven that she stole from me?

This is really discouraging to hear. Makes me wonder why I bothered getting up in the morning day after day and working for what I have. I should have just sat here committing online fraud in small amounts because it's not worth the victim's time or money to do anything about it until it added up to a large sum.

 

[swalsh411]

It wouldn't cost thousands in court costs to sue this person but your travel costs would FAR exceed the judgment.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

OP claimed it was physically impossible to travel 2500 miles due to a disability.

 

[AngryMan]

It wouldn't cost thousands in court costs to sue this person but your travel costs would FAR exceed the judgment.

Right, that's why I'm trying to figure out if I'm able to press charges from here. I'm disabled and can't travel across the country anyway. I don't know how the law works in this situation. The theft didn't really occur in Georgia any more than it occurred in Arizona - it was online. Some have said I have to go there, some have said I can file charges locally and she would have to come here if she wanted to try and defend herself, but neither opinion can cite a source.

 

[Nevergrowup]

I'm guessing you have spent so much time on this that you have probably spent more in your time than you'd ever recover. It is unfortunate that you did not file within the time frame. If you had, you would not be dealing with this now.

Do you think that the taxpayers dollars are well spent, having that policeman try to track down the "theif" over and over again over $15? Do you think that the time for a court clerk, or a baliff, or judge is best spent by judging over a matter worth $15? The seller could very well claim misunderstanding, or claim USPS did something to it (and that wouldn't be hard to believe). If you were pitbullish with the seller like you appear to be, she may have just been nervous about responding to you. You are going nuts over $15. I know, I know, it is the principle...but if she has thousands of satisfied people, perhaps it was just an error, and you scared her off! If you would have followed the rules yourself (no matter what "they" told you at Paypal) this would not be an issue.

I'm going to say this kindly. There are a lot of things out there for people to do...lots of charities, ect. that would be glad to have someone of your dedicated nature helping out. All those hours you spent over $15 (again, principle, I know) would have been much better spent elsewhere.

 

[AngryMan]

Alright, I'll be as polite about this as I can muster at this point.

I really don't care if the detective doesn't feel like dealing with it because he doesn't think it's worth the effort. Same goes for the courts. A crime was committed against me and I should be entitled to justice. Those taxpayer dollars that are being spent (or were, when the det. was even bothering) were mine as well. A crime was committed by a person in his jurisdiction. It's his job to deal with it, be it $15 or $15,000, whether or not he personally feels it's worth the money. Maybe most other people are content to turn the other cheek when they get ripped off because in their estimation it isn't "enough" of a theft to be worth punishing the thief. I'm not one of those people. I pay my taxes for these social services just like everyone else. Why shouldn't I be entitled to them? Because one or two people think it isn't enough money? So, moving on past whether or not this is worth it to various people and back to the legal aspect of the matter at hand...

As far as the woman goes; I never "scared her off". After a month, I asked where my item was. She responded that she would "try and find another". After a couple more weeks with no item or communication, I informed her I had received nothing. No response. Tried again after another week. No response. I've never threatened her in any way, including any threats of legal action as of yet (not that that would be illegal anyway). She has chosen to ignore me. She has also chosen to ignore the detective, who evidently doesn't care enough to pursue her in the matter. I'm left with no other option but legal action, and that's the information I'm looking for. As far as how much time I have or haven't spent on this; that's my own choice. I'm disabled. It's not like my days are filled with important strings of schedules like they used to be.

So if anyone has any sources on my legal rights as asked above, I'd very much appreciate it. We can argue endlessly over how severe a crime needs to be before it really becomes a crime, but I don't much see the point. A crime was committed against me - regardless of the opinion of severity - and I'm just looking for a little help.

 

[Zigner]

Alright, I'll be as polite about this as I can muster at this point.

I really don't care if the detective doesn't feel like dealing with it because he doesn't think it's worth the effort. Same goes for the courts. A crime was committed against me and I should be entitled to justice. Those taxpayer dollars that are being spent (or were, when the det. was even bothering) were mine as well. A crime was committed by a person in his jurisdiction. It's his job to deal with it, be it $15 or $15,000, whether or not he personally feels it's worth the money. Maybe most other people are content to turn the other cheek when they get ripped off because in their estimation it isn't "enough" of a theft to be worth punishing the thief. I'm not one of those people. I pay my taxes for these social services just like everyone else. Why shouldn't I be entitled to them? Because one or two people think it isn't enough money? So, moving on past whether or not this is worth it to various people and back to the legal aspect of the matter at hand...

As far as the woman goes; I never "scared her off". After a month, I asked where my item was. She responded that she would "try and find another". After a couple more weeks with no item or communication, I informed her I had received nothing. No response. Tried again after another week. No response. I've never threatened her in any way, including any threats of legal action as of yet (not that that would be illegal anyway). She has chosen to ignore me. She has also chosen to ignore the detective, who evidently doesn't care enough to pursue her in the matter. I'm left with no other option but legal action, and that's the information I'm looking for. As far as how much time I have or haven't spent on this; that's my own choice. I'm disabled. It's not like my days are filled with important strings of schedules like they used to be.

So if anyone has any sources on my legal rights as asked above, I'd very much appreciate it. We can argue endlessly over how severe a crime needs to be before it really becomes a crime, but I don't much see the point. A crime was committed against me - regardless of the opinion of severity - and I'm just looking for a little help.

Sue the bad person in small claims court (in THEIR state). You won't get the coppers to help you on this one, no matter how much you rant about it.

 

[Zigner]

To be clear - this is a CIVIL BREACH OF CONTRACT MATTER.

 

[justalayman]

I really don't care if the detective doesn't feel like dealing with it because he doesn't think it's worth the effort.

you need to understand that there is not enough manpower in any police department to spend hundreds of hours on every case. They do get prioritized whether you like it or not and your case is going to be somewhere near the bottom.

Same goes for the courts.

the courts have nothing to do with this until you file a complaint in the courts.

A crime was committed against me and I should be entitled to justice.

read the first answer again.

Those taxpayer dollars that are being spent (or were, when the det. was even bothering) were mine as well

.actually, since you do not live in the state the other person does and you are asking the police in that state to investigate, absolutely none of your money is being spent to support that police department.

A crime was committed by a person in his jurisdiction. It's his job to deal with it, be it $15 or $15,000, whether or not he personally feels it's worth the money

.go back and read the first answer I gave you

Maybe most other people are content to turn the other cheek when they get ripped off because in their estimation it isn't "enough" of a theft to be worth punishing the thief. I'm not one of those people. I pay my taxes for these social services just like everyone else

.you don't pay your taxes to the other state so get off that horse. It's already dead

Because one or two people think it isn't enough money?

because the reality is your situation is so minimal and the likelihood of this actually being a criminal act, it is a waste of the taxpayers money of the other state.

As far as the woman goes; I never "scared her off". After a month, I asked where my item was. She responded that she would "try and find another". After a couple more weeks with no item or communication, I informed her I had received nothing. No response. Tried again after another week. No response. I've never threatened her in any way, including any threats of legal action as of yet (not that that would be illegal anyway). She has chosen to ignore me. She has also chosen to ignore the detective, who evidently doesn't care enough to pursue her in the matter. I'm left with no other option but legal action, and that's the information I'm looking for. As far as how much time I have or haven't spent on this; that's my own choice. I'm disabled. It's not like my days are filled with important strings of schedules like they used to be

.so, get on your horse and ride into her town and file a suit in the courts there to attempt to regain your money. You can't? Oh, I'm sorry but they do not do carry out. If you cannot avail yourself of the services afforded you, it is not their fault.

So if anyone has any sources on my legal rights as asked above, I'd very much appreciate it. We can argue endlessly over how severe a crime needs to be before it really becomes a crime, but I don't much see the point. A crime was committed against me - regardless of the opinion of severity - and I'm just looking for a little help.[

actually you have not even established this as a crime (as in criminal v. civil). If it is civil, the police have no business dealing with it. It is your duty to take the necessary action to recoup your money.

 

[AngryMan]

Alright, maybe I've come to the wrong place. This was supposed to be some type of legal advice forum with knowledgeable folks to assist others.

My question has been asked. I'll no longer respond to anything regarding whether or not this crime is worth my time or anyone elses. That's a matter of personal opinion and has nothing to do with my question, but people have decided to derail the thread and refocus on non-relevant morality issues.

I thank those who have responded to the actual question thus far and shared their knowledge, and will reiterate that I'm still looking for a legal source as to whether or not I am legally able to press charges from my own city, as I've received conflicting information, and no sources. Relevant responses will be greatly appreciated. Non-relevant opinion on whether or not this is worth my time or other irrelevant arguments that have no end will be ignored and receive no response. I'm getting too many answers to questions I didn't ask.

Thank you again for your time, and I'm still searching for the answer to the original question.

 

[justalayman]

fine, here are answers to the questions you asked:

Is there a way for a disabled person to bust this thief from here?

IF this person was seen as a thief, then yes but so far, you have not shown this to be a criminal act.

Or will she get away with it simply by ignoring me and the police?

if by ignore you mean you refuse to go to her state and take the necessary action to sue her, yes.

if you refuse to take the actions required to hold the person responsible, nobody else is going to do it for you. This is not a criminal action so there is nothing the police can do for you.

It's all you angry guy.