Charged for use of livery vehicle...

[Ultranothing]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Connecticut

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Connecticut

Hello! I work as a livery driver in CT, and have been employed by my company since April of 2006. Since January of this year, my employer has been charging us $25 per week for taking our cars home with us at night. This fee was not required of me until the beginning of this year, and I have been taking the company car home daily, since my first day on the job.

Furthermore, I was never asked to, nor did I authorize in writing my agreement to this charge.

It should also be noted that the reason given by my employer for the charge, is that any car which is rendered unavailable to the company (such as by an employee having it at their house), is thus not able to be utilized for profit during the time it is in my possession.

Drivers who chose not to pay the weekly fee were given an alternative; drive their personal car, or get a ride to the company lot in the morning and transfer to a company vehicle.

This would be acceptable for those employees who lived in the vicinity of the company, but here's where it gets complicated:

I was hired to work in and around my area, a distance of over thirty miles from the company lot. For virtually the entire duration of my employment, I would have different "regulars" - clients who lived only minutes away from my house. I would bring the car home at the end of my work-day, and in the morning I would again begin my shift with scheduled work near my home.

So, the alternative to me paying $25 per week to the company for the privilege of taking the car home, would be to drive my personal vehicle over thirty miles to the company lot, transfer into the company vehicle, drive the company vehicle over thirty miles back to my area, and begin my shift (which usually begins with a pick-up at between 7 and 8 AM).

Then, at the end of my shift, drive the company vehicle from wherever I happen to be, back to the lot, transfer back into my personal vehicle, and drive another 30+ miles back to my house.

Keep in mind, too, that I am responsible for all fuel costs associated with my job, and that I am not authorized to use the company vehicle for personal reasons.

One might argue that, given the circumstances, $25 is a small price to pay. I would contend that, because they have contracts for work in my area, because they need me to be in that area, that the $25 fee, or the alternative consequence, is wholly unnecessary and downright impractical from the start.

Not only that, but the reasoning behind the fee - that the unavailability of my car to the company equals a profit loss, does not apply to me or others in my position:

Because my vehicle is only authorized for medical livery and school transport, and because these types of clients do not exist in the late evening/nighttime/early morning hours, there is no conceivable need of my vehicle by the company, once my shift ends at roughly 6PM.

So, with all of that in mind, two questions arise:

Can my company continue charging me this fee?

Do I have legal recourse in requesting back any fees I've paid since January?

Your input is greatly appreciated!

 

[Ultranothing]

Funny how my questions are always the "stumpers"...

No-one wishes to opine?

 

[pattytx]

Sorry, somehow I missed this. Not at stumper at all.

Basically, what we are talking about her is "personal use of company vehicle", which requires some type of imputed income, IF the employee does not pay themselves. There are several ways of calculating this as follows:

1. Fair Market Value - what the employee would pay to rent or lease the vehicle in an arm's-length transaction. This is very rarely used, except in the cases of outside salespersons because of ratio of personal use to business use is so low.

2. Cents-per-mile. The current IRS rate ($.50/mile in 2010) times the personal use miles driven. Commuting is personal miles. At 30 miles from the office; 60 miles per day, 5 days per week, 300 miles * $.50 = $150.00. You have deducted from your pay $25.00/week; that leaves imputed income (on which payroll taxes must be withheld) of $125.00/week.

3. Commuting rule. Basically, $1.50 per trip. 2 trips per day, 10 trips per week - $15.00.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15b.pdf

Unfortunately, the employee doesn't get to decide which method is used.

Are you required to keep a record of personal miles? The employer should require it and, even if they don't, you should keep your own records. Commuting IS "personal use".

So, to answer your questions, yes, the deduction is legal and, no, you really don't have any recourse to get any of the previous deductions back.

 

[Ultranothing]

Hi Patty!

How could any use of the company vehicle be considered "personal"? Esp. considering I have no authorization to use said vehicle for such purpose?

 

[ecmst12]

Your first trip from your house to your first client in the morning, and the last trip back home at the end of the day, are normal commuting time not work time. It's personal use because you're not on the clock. But I'm guessing the actual miles for this are much less then 60 per day, since you work closer to your house then the office.

 

[justalayman]

Drivers who chose not to pay the weekly fee were given an alternative; drive their personal car, or get a ride to the company lot in the morning and transfer to a company vehicle.

This would be acceptable for those employees who lived in the vicinity of the company, but here's where it gets complicated:

nothing really complicated about it. . Sounds like you need to choose one and get on with life. Just because you live where you do you are not entitled to special treatment, which is what you are looking for.

 

[Ultranothing]

"Your first trip from your house to your first client in the morning, and the last trip back home at the end of the day, are normal commuting time not work time. It's personal use because you're not on the clock."

Sorry, but that is completely illogical from the standpoint of a public transportation employee. Following that logic, all times between client transportation would have to be considered personal time, because it is (even from the basest common-sense standpoint) an absolute requirement that I must drive to the client in order to pick up the client. What I mean, is that any time in the car MUST be considered company time, because it is impossible to perform my duties otherwise.

Furthermore, that my company explicitly forbids the personal use of their vehicles, while simultaneously allowing the take-home of said vehicle for logistical reasons, negates them contractually from charging me for something which is expressly forbidden by said policy, does it not?

P.S., justalayman - if I've learned one thing in my 40+ posts here at freeadvice, it's that your input is worth exactly what I paid for it. You are rude, condescending, and eternally negative. You have been fundamentally wrong on the final outcomes of all my inquiries, and your opinions should be considered by all as simply a worst-case scenario in a world conceived of your paranoid, "world out to get you" machinations. What I'm trying to say is, you can put your tin-foil hat back on, and disregard all of my future posts. Thanks!

EDIT: Oh, that would make a fine signature for you, considering you like to revel in your own superiority!

 

[ecmst12]

Your work day starts when you get to your first appointment. Travel between clients within the work day is work time. Travel between home and the first & last clients is not work time. It's very simple and the IRS defines this as well.

I agree that it's really lame for them to charge you for taking the vehicle home, surely it would cost MORE in wear and tear to the vehicle if you were to put an extra 60 miles per day on the car driving it from the office back to your work area, and back to the office again at night...but your employer does not have to be logical or fair. Sorry.

 

[pattytx]

Sorry, but that is completely illogical from the standpoint of a public transportation employee. Following that logic, all times between client transportation would have to be considered personal time, because it is (even from the basest common-sense standpoint) an absolute requirement that I must drive to the client in order to pick up the client. What I mean, is that any time in the car MUST be considered company time, because it is impossible to perform my duties otherwise.

Furthermore, that my company explicitly forbids the personal use of their vehicles, while simultaneously allowing the take-home of said vehicle for logistical reasons, negates them contractually from charging me for something which is expressly forbidden by said policy, does it not?

P.S., justalayman - if I've learned one thing in my 40+ posts here at freeadvice, it's that your input is worth exactly what I paid for it. You are rude, condescending, and eternally negative. You have been fundamentally wrong on the final outcomes of all my inquiries, and your opinions should be considered by all as simply a worst-case scenario in a world conceived of your paranoid, "world out to get you" machinations. What I'm trying to say is, you can put your tin-foil hat back on, and disregard all of my future posts. Thanks!

1. Then you don't know the law about what travel time is considered commuting and what travel time is considered work time. I suggest you actually READ the applicable regulations here:

http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.35.htm
http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.38.htm

"Logic" has nothing to do with it. The law is clear.

2. "Commuting" is personal time and personal mileage. Again, the law is clear. If you have a law that refutes this, please feel free to post it.

3. justalayman gave you sound advice. Obviously, you don't know the law and want somebody to tell you what you want to hear. We're not in the "logic" game. Nor the "make the poster feel good" game.

Please feel free to pay an attorney to tell you the same thing.

 

[justalayman]

=Ultranothing;2640497]Sorry, but that is completely illogical from the standpoint of a public transportation employee. Following that logic, all times between client transportation would have to be considered personal time, because it is (even from the basest common-sense standpoint) an absolute requirement that I must drive to the client in order to pick up the client.

until you are "on the clock" you are on personal time so if you are driving the vehicle before you are on the clock, you are using the vehicle for personal use. Apparently logic isn't your strong point.

Furthermore, that my company explicitly forbids the personal use of their vehicles, while simultaneously allowing the take-home of said vehicle for logistical reasons, negates them contractually from charging me for something which is expressly forbidden by said policy, does it not?

no. apparently they are willing to allow this minimal use as a necessity. their rules and they get to adjust them as they desire as long as they do not break the law, and they aren't.

P.S., justalayman - if I've learned one thing in my 40+ posts here at freeadvice, it's that your input is worth exactly what I paid for it. You are rude, condescending, and eternally negative. You have been fundamentally wrong on the final outcomes of all my inquiries, and your opinions should be considered by all as simply a worst-case scenario in a world conceived of your paranoid, "world out to get you" machinations. What I'm trying to say is, you can put your tin-foil hat back on, and disregard all of my future posts. Thanks!

oh, I feel so hurt from a guy whining about having to abide by the legitimate rules his employer has put in place for him.



and I thought you got fired from this job:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/hiring-firing-wrongful-termination-5/former-employer-playing-head-games-me-507523.html

and it appears that your big complaint isn't that you do not want to drive your car to work but you do not have a car to drive to work.

 

[pattytx]

and it appears that your big complaint isn't that you do not want to drive your car to work but you do not have a car to drive to work.

Now there's logic for ya.

 

[Ultranothing]

Ah, but the laws you quoted were in "ordinary situations". It is my contention (as was explained to me by the owner of the transportation company) that the vehicle is considered the job-site as it pertains to livery drivers. This is by no means an "ordinary situation".

And if I may point out:

* Section Number: 785.44
* Section Name: Civic and charitable work.

Time spent in work for public or charitable purposes at the employer's request, or under his direction or control, or while the employee is required to be on the premises, is working time. However, time spent voluntarily in such activities outside of the employee's normal working hours is not hours worked.

I have a public-service license. I am required to be on the premises (the car is the job-site). I am under the direction and control of the dispatch radio, which is located in the car.

Please, if anyone can find a resource where I can read the laws myself, as they pertain to my industry, by all means show me the way.

 

[Ultranothing]

until you are "on the clock" you are on personal time so if you are driving the vehicle before you are on the clock, you are using the vehicle for personal use. Apparently logic isn't your strong point.

no. apparently they are willing to allow this minimal use as a necessity. their rules and they get to adjust them as they desire as long as they do not break the law, and they aren't.

oh, I feel so hurt from a guy whining about having to abide by the legitimate rules his employer has put in place for him.



and I thought you got fired from this job:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/hiring-firing-wrongful-termination-5/former-employer-playing-head-games-me-507523.html

and it appears that your big complaint isn't that you do not want to drive your car to work but you do not have a car to drive to work.

Aww, how nice of you to bring that up! More sage advice from justalayman. Yeah, it turns out I won that case. And as a matter of fact, I'm still employed there. I was rehired, so I'm told, so they wouldn't have to keep paying on my claim. I did end up receiving over a dozen checks in the mail one day.

Good thing I listened to you, huh? Yeah, it turns out those "legitimate" rules set forth by my employer weren't lawful, and I'm damn sure these recent ones aren't either.

I suppose I could live in your world, where I just bent over and took whatever came my way because I happened to be a spineless fool, but that's not the way I work. I fight for what I believe is right, and I'm inclined to feel pretty screwed on this new "policy" they have at my work.

until you are "on the clock" you are on personal time so if you are driving the vehicle before you are on the clock, you are using the vehicle for personal use. Apparently logic isn't your strong point.

Slight problem there, Mr. know-it-all! I am never "on the clock". I am paid by the job, which means I am paid a fee for "picking up" the client (read: having to drive there), paid for set miles (read:the driving), and rarely I am paid for waiting.

My driving to ANY client, be it the first client, or the last, HAS to be considered company time. It is at the request of the company that I drive TO the client, no matter WHICH client it is! It is absolutely, 100% required of me to drive to the client. Furthermore, I have to pay for all fuel expenses, whether that client is five miles away, or fifty.

Logic isn't MY strong point? You've got to be kidding.

 

[pattytx]

Charity? The vehicle is your "workplace"? Oh-puhleeze. I gave you the relevant cites. They are not specific to industry.

I'm done here, do whatever you want to do.

 

[justalayman]

]Ultranothing;2640517]Aww, how nice of you to bring that up! More sage advice from justalayman. Yeah, it turns out I won that case. And as a matter of fact, I'm still employed there. I was rehired, so I'm told, so they wouldn't have to keep paying on my claim. I did end up receiving over a dozen checks in the mail one day.

Good thing I listened to you, huh? Yeah, it turns out those "legitimate" rules set forth by my employer weren't lawful, and I'm damn sure these recent ones aren't either.

what rules? You said they told you to drive to work and you refused.

I fight for what I believe is right, and I'm inclined to feel pretty screwed on this new "policy" they have at my work.

Oh well.


Who is taking the bets for how long before the OG effect is invoked?

Slight problem there, Mr. know-it-all! I am never "on the clock". I am paid by the job, which means I am paid a fee for "picking up" the client (read: having to drive there), paid for set miles (read:the driving), and rarely I am paid for waiting

. oh, you are RARELY paid for waiting but you are NEVER on the clock. Do you not notice how those two "facts" are incongruent?

My driving to ANY client, be it the first client, or the last, HAS to be considered company time. It is at the request of the company that I drive TO the client, no matter WHICH client it is! It is absolutely, 100% required of me to drive to the client. Furthermore, I have to pay for all fuel expenses, whether that client is five miles away, or fifty.

and why does it HAVE to be considered company time? It is also at the request of the company that you come pick up the car at the business if you want to use it but that is not company time.

If they pay you for your travel from your house to your first pickup, that is their choice. They don't have to.