Tenant refuses responsibility

[plzody85]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA
The tenant of a house we are renting out has caused damge to the drain pipe under the kitchen sink. We had our new property manager inspect the leak under the kitchen sink. He found the pipe which connects the bottom of the sink off and the metal threads stripped. He noted evidence it was taken apart or very forcfully kicked apart. It did not just start to leak as claimed. We now have damage to the basement ceiling tiles from this leak. we advised the tenant based on the findings of the property manager they will be held responsibile for the damage and can either call in a plumber for the repair or we will. Either way they are being held responsible for the reapirs.The tenant will accept no responsibility and has responded in an email to us that it does not matter what caused the leak nor does he care what happened we are to fix it, period. There have been on going issues with the tenant since they moved into the property 3 months ago.

 

[BL]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA
The tenant of a house we are renting out has caused damge to the drain pipe under the kitchen sink. We had our new property manager inspect the leak under the kitchen sink. He found the pipe which connects the bottom of the sink off and the metal threads stripped. He noted evidence it was taken apart or very forcfully kicked apart. It did not just start to leak as claimed. We now have damage to the basement ceiling tiles from this leak. we advised the tenant based on the findings of the property manager they will be held responsibile for the damage and can either call in a plumber for the repair or we will. Either way they are being held responsible for the reapirs.The tenant will accept no responsibility and has responded in an email to us that it does not matter what caused the leak nor does he care what happened we are to fix it, period. There have been on going issues with the tenant since they moved into the property 3 months ago.

Ok . Was there a question ?

Regardless , have a plumber or maintenance fix it before it causes further damage .

Have the plumber note the parts were not the cause of the leak if it's so .

You sure the threads - gaskets were not worn or corroded ?

Do you still have the parts ?

If not , without a repair person in the field saying the tenant was the cause instead of the manager , you might just eat the cost.

 

[plzody85]

New plumbing was installed a year ago with the renovation of the kitchen. The ring spins around with a touch of the hand. The drain is not connected to the underside of the sink now. We are very DIY's and can confidently say the pipe did not seperate on its own. When asked how it occured we received no response. We have a certified plumber coming in to inspect and repair. He will be sending us the parts. There have been on going problems with the tenant since he moved in 3 months ago. We had the home fully inspected by a certified home inspetion service, our realtor, their realtor and them before they moved in. Everything was noted as in perfect working condition. We are new landlords so our question is how to we proceed with these people. Do we continue to repair and document each issues as it comes to us and then address at the end of the lease. How do other landlords deal with similar situations. We will not be renewing their lease as the house will be going back on the market. Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[BL]

New plumbing was installed a year ago with the renovation of the kitchen. The ring spins around with a touch of the hand. The drain is not connected to the underside of the sink now. We are very DIY's and can confidently say the pipe did not seperate on its own. When asked how it occured we received no response. We have a certified plumber coming in to inspect and repair. He will be sending us the parts. There have been on going problems with the tenant since he moved in 3 months ago. We had the home fully inspected by a certified home inspetion service, our realtor, their realtor and them before they moved in. Everything was noted as in perfect working condition. We are new landlords so our question is how to we proceed with these people. Do we continue to repair and document each issues as it comes to us and then address at the end of the lease. How do other landlords deal with similar situations. We will not be renewing their lease as the house will be going back on the market. Any suggestions would be helpful.

I'm not a LL but yes document ( have the noted plumber add a notation to the invoice/letterhead of the condition of the parts and his/her opinion as to how the leak could have occurred ) .

Add incidents up and deduct from SD per your States law after the tenant's vacate .

 

[FarmerJ]

If the nut that holds the tail piece onto the bottom of the strainer baskets threads was plastic to plastic ,it likely has been turned too many times or cross threaded and the plastic has stripped out, If the nut was metal and strainer basket metal then it had to have been forced while being tightened or cross threaded. BTW home inspectors do not take things apart to look for damaged pipe thread , neither would a realtor they would only note leaks / malfunctions . Even though tenant has only lived in the unit 3 months do you think its possible that the previous occupant may have caused one of the conditions I mentioned ? ( even a crossed thread connection might not leak if not under pressure like how water lines are until pipe could have been accidently banged into enough times that someone else tightened it again even if it didnt grab on hard.) Sure the plumber can give you damaged parts but it may well be hard to prove this tenant did anything to it even by accident unless it was a new install that was done In between his/her and previous occupant living there. I think its a stretch to prove to a court in the end when you go after the tenants dep funds or try to force payment if it was not a brand new repair the day they moved in. Maybe a better choice is to pick and choose your battles on this and let it go and make a point of reminding the tenant in writting that they must notify you of any repairs to the units structural / mechanical systems as soon as they are discovered in the future or they will become responsible for damage created by failing to notify you.

 

[Who's Liable?]

If the nut that holds the tail piece onto the bottom of the strainer baskets threads was plastic to plastic ,it likely has been turned too many times or cross threaded and the plastic has stripped out, If the nut was metal and strainer basket metal then it had to have been forced while being tightened or cross threaded. BTW home inspectors do not take things apart to look for damaged pipe thread , neither would a realtor they would only note leaks / malfunctions . Even though tenant has only lived in the unit 3 months do you think its possible that the previous occupant may have caused one of the conditions I mentioned ? ( even a crossed thread connection might not leak if not under pressure like how water lines are until pipe could have been accidently banged into enough times that someone else tightened it again even if it didnt grab on hard.) Sure the plumber can give you damaged parts but it may well be hard to prove this tenant did anything to it even by accident unless it was a new install that was done In between his/her and previous occupant living there. I think its a stretch to prove to a court in the end when you go after the tenants dep funds or try to force payment if it was not a brand new repair the day they moved in. Maybe a better choice is to pick and choose your battles on this and let it go and make a point of reminding the tenant in writting that they must notify you of any repairs to the units structural / mechanical systems as soon as they are discovered in the future or they will become responsible for damage created by failing to notify you.

X2...

Most residential inspectors I've dealt with have been pretty much worthless. There is absolutely no way to tell if the tenant did cause this without actually seeing them do it, and as stated by the previous post, this may have been caused by the installation as well.

 

[plzody85]

We, the owners, were in the home prior to the tenants moving in. We are fully aware that inspections are what the inspectors make of it. The home is part of a relocation, so we had specific requirments we had to follow with the home inspections, and we had extra attention made to the inspection to prevent this specific situation. It is the metal to metal and not the ploastic. Our first thought was that they had taken it apart for a clog or somethng dropped in the sink and expected the plastic PVC to be the issue. However, when the property manager went into the house to inspect under the sink, it was evident to him it had been knocked apart either from the top of the sink down or somehow from the underside. The basket moves up and down from the top. I was in the house 2 weeks prior with a service tech doing a standard maintenace check on the dishwasher and garbage disposal and all the pumbing at that time was rock solid. When our property manager asked how the seperation occured they said nothing. Not even a we don't know, we just found the leak. Just absolutly nothing. Our poperty manager has never seen this occur before. We will know more once our plumber looks at it tomorrow. We have used this plumber for years with no problems. He is the one who did the installation of the new plumbing when the kitchen was fully remodelled last year. We know 2 kids ages 9 and 11 are left alone in the home for long periods of time. We have had to had to put the sliding glass patio door back on track 4 times due to the kids knocking it off (no the tenant will not lift the door and put it back on track nor will they clean the dirt out of the track so the door will operate correctly). When I was in the house there was wall to wall clutter, 1/4 of the landscaping has been damaged, just to name some of what we have encountered in a short period of time. Any how, Next question I have is, these people had an option to purchase the home and have just relayed to their realtor they never had an intent to purchase. Can we put the house on the market and show while they are in the home, or do we have to wait until the lease is up? Also, can we notify them now that we will not be renewing their lease and have them vacate by end date of the lease now or do we have to wait until 60 days prior to end of lease? One more question, per an addendum our realtor added to the lease and they agreed to, they must have the house clean and prepared for showings and open houses and follow all requests made by our realtor? If they do not clean the house to her specification and we call in a cleaning crew can we charge them for the cost of cleaning for each showing/open house? I know. A lot of quesiton, but we are new to this, have no intention of ever doing this again once the house is sold, and would never had put the house up as rental if the housing market was not in the shape it is in. This is not a standard property. It is a high end property which is even harder the sell and the tenants had excellent credit rating and background checks.

 

[Who's Liable?]

We, the owners, were in the home prior to the tenants moving in. We are fully aware that inspections are what the inspectors make of it. The home is part of a relocation, so we had specific requirments we had to follow with the home inspections, and we had extra attention made to the inspection to prevent this specific situation. It is the metal to metal and not the ploastic. Our first thought was that they had taken it apart for a clog or somethng dropped in the sink and expected the plastic PVC to be the issue. However, when the property manager went into the house to inspect under the sink, it was evident to him it had been knocked apart either from the top of the sink down or somehow from the underside. The basket moves up and down from the top. I was in the house 2 weeks prior with a service tech doing a standard maintenace check on the dishwasher and garbage disposal and all the pumbing at that time was rock solid. When our property manager asked how the seperation occured they said nothing. Not even a we don't know, we just found the leak. Just absolutly nothing. Our poperty manager has never seen this occur before. We will know more once our plumber looks at it tomorrow. We have used this plumber for years with no problems. He is the one who did the installation of the new plumbing when the kitchen was fully remodelled last year. We know 2 kids ages 9 and 11 are left alone in the home for long periods of time. We have had to had to put the sliding glass patio door back on track 4 times due to the kids knocking it off (no the tenant will not lift the door and put it back on track nor will they clean the dirt out of the track so the door will operate correctly)..

As stated before, could go either way.

When I was in the house there was wall to wall clutter, 1/4 of the landscaping has been damaged, just to name some of what we have encountered in a short period of time..

Welcome to the joy of being a LL, if you don't like it, don't do it anymore.

Any how, Next question I have is, these people had an option to purchase the home and have just relayed to their realtor they never had an intent to purchase..

It's called an "option" for a reason, and they chose not to utilize that option. Get over it.

Can we put the house on the market and show while they are in the home, or do we have to wait until the lease is up?.

You can put the home on the market any time you want, the norm is to wait until at least 30-60 days prior to the termination of the lease.

Also, can we notify them now that we will not be renewing their lease and have them vacate by end date of the lease now or do we have to wait until 60 days prior to end of lease?

To ease the transition, wait at least until 60 days.

One more question, per an addendum our realtor added to the lease and they agreed to, they must have the house clean and prepared for showings and open houses and follow all requests made by our realtor?.

Pretty much useless and unenforceable clause. Did you define "clean", and define "requests" in the lease? Clean can mean MANY different things to different people.

they do not clean the house to her specification and we call in a cleaning crew can we charge them for the cost of cleaning for each showing/open house?.

Did you define what her "specification" was, or how much the cleaning would be? If not, than it will be hard to enforce, which is shy these types of "clauses" are laughable.

I know. A lot of quesiton, but we are new to this, have no intention of ever doing this again once the house is sold, and would never had put the house up as rental if the housing market was not in the shape it is in. This is not a standard property. It is a high end property which is even harder the sell and the tenants had excellent credit rating and background checks.

You win some, you lose some.

 

[BL]

Did the tenant sign the addendum " clause " ?