Stopping Payment on a Check

[JustAPal00]

The wrong thing to do is to stop payment. He will sue you and probably win. It will end up costing you a lot more then just the $150. The thing to do was to argue at the time and refuse to pay. Now the thing to do is sue him in court.

Michigan Legislature - Section 600.2952

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.131

 

[Free_Advice]

If you stop payment, you'll be hard put to explain that it isn't your intention to "stiff" the repairman, only pay him what you think the job is worth.

A stop payment on the check IS the correct avenue. And the OP is not going to pay him whatever the OP thinks is appropriate -- the OP is willing to provide the full estimated price of $250.

Now, most estimates are just that - estimates +/- 10%. So +10% would be $275.

Some small claims judges may rule this way; others may say its $250.

I have NEVER seen a final bill come under the estimated price. If anyone has please chime in.

I think the OP is handling this well.

 

[JustAPal00]

A stop payment on the check IS the correct avenue. And the OP is not going to pay him whatever the OP thinks is appropriate -- the OP is willing to provide the full estimated price of $250.

Now, most estimates are just that - estimates +/- 10%. So +10% would be $275.

Some small claims judges may rule this way; others may say its $250.

I have NEVER seen a final bill come under the estimated price. If anyone has please chime in.

I think the OP is handling this well.

But it's illegal! Not paying would have been "handling this well", but writing a bad check is against the law. Stopping payment on the check is exactly that.

 

[TigerD]

How'se about you call him back and give an opportunity to fix it right -- on his dime before running off to court.

DC

 

[JenniSam]

I agree with many of the posters, there were several ways I could have handled this issue and I am still not sure which way was best. You can argue this from many angles and I guess it would be up to a judge to decide, if it came to that. But I made a decision and I stopped payment on the check. I can say for certain that I am not trying to get anything for free. Right or wrong, I stopped payment on the check. However, FIRST I called the county prosecutor’s office to inquire about how they process these issues. Our county has a program that goes after people who write “bad” checks. I explained my situation. I was told that he can file a complaint but if I can show that I had sufficient funds at the time I wrote the check and at the time I stopped payment, then they do not consider it criminal and they close the case. The same day I stopped payment, I purchased a money order for $145 (to bring total payment to $250) and sent it certified mail with a letter explaining what was going on. I also consulted with an attorney who felt I had the right to stop payment as long as I paid what had been agreed upon. Lastly, I reviewed the first receipt very carefully, it clearly details the $250 quote and the ONLY repair it lists is the leak. So I fully expected him to return the next week to fix ONLY the leak and then I would pay the balance of $145. After he finished doing whatever he did, he gave me a receipt that included fixing the leak (that isn’t fixed), fixing a pump and rebuilding a motor. Based on the receipts, the $250 covered ALL parts including the PVC pipe for the leak, motor and pump parts. The parts came to $125. He just wasn’t paid for the extra time he billed for “fixing” the motor and pump that he wasn’t authorized to fix anyway.

I paid the $145 that I owed for the service regardless if it was good or bad. Normally I would give a person the chance to go back over the work if it’s not correct. In this situation, I do not want him to come back to “fix” the job because I don’t trust his work and I don’t trust him as a person. So he was paid $250 for trying to fix the tub. I have no intention of going to court, but I have no intention of paying his inflated bill either.

As a side note, how is this different from stopping or reversing a credit card payment when there is a dispute? Credit card companies reverse payments for their customers when there is a dispute regarding service or goods, correct? Is that illegal as well?

 

[Free_Advice]

Our county has a program that goes after people who write “bad” checks. I explained my situation. I was told that he can file a complaint but if I can show that I had sufficient funds at the time I wrote the check and at the time I stopped payment, then they do not consider it criminal and they close the case.

This is correct; some folks will simply take out $$ and let it go NSF; this does create an issue for the person who wrote the check.

As I said before; issuing a stop payment shows that an issue is present. You could have written a check and then found a major defect afterwards & could have stopped payment...yours is a little different. But the guy was standing right next to you in your house. So writing a check to get him out of there is perfectly understandable (you don't want a rukus inside your house).

With the fees involved though it may not make economic sense in your specific case but hey, this is up to you to decide.

 

[Zigner]

When the contractor sues you, you will likely lose. Why? Because you wrote the check out in the first place. This was not some "hidden defect" as was alluded to above. If the guy caused a ruckus, then you can call the police.

 

[justalayman]

JenniSam;2846642] Our county has a program that goes after people who write “bad” checks. I explained my situation. I was told that he can file a complaint but if I can show that I had sufficient funds at the time I wrote the check and at the time I stopped payment, then they do not consider it criminal and they close the case.

it may not be a bad check issue but it can be theft of services or fraud.

The same day I stopped payment, I purchased a money order for $145 (to bring total payment to $250) and sent it certified mail with a letter explaining what was going on. I also consulted with an attorney who felt I had the right to stop payment as long as I paid what had been agreed upon.

what was agreed upon was what you wrote the check for. You amended the initial agreement by saying, "oh, ok, here is a check for your services"

Lastly, I reviewed the first receipt very carefully, it clearly details the $250 quote and the ONLY repair it lists is the leak. So I fully expected him to return the next week to fix ONLY the leak and then I would pay the balance of $145

.that does not mean the work performed

After he finished doing whatever he did, he gave me a receipt that included fixing the leak (that isn’t fixed), fixing a pump and rebuilding a motor. Based on the receipts, the $250 covered ALL parts including the PVC pipe for the leak, motor and pump parts. The parts came to $125. He just wasn’t paid for the extra time he billed for “fixing” the motor and pump that he wasn’t authorized to fix anyway.

how do you get that the motor parts were in that initial quote? Again, you agreed to the increase by paying it. You had a right to refuse payment for something you believe was not due. This isn't like he just snuck in a price increase. He told you he did additional work and there was an additional charge. At that point, you either accept it and pay or dispute it and not pay the added charge. You accepted it and paid.

I paid the $145 that I owed for the service regardless if it was good or bad. Normally I would give a person the chance to go back over the work if it’s not correct. In this situation, I do not want him to come back to “fix” the job because I don’t trust his work and I don’t trust him as a person. So he was paid $250 for trying to fix the tub. I have no intention of going to court, but I have no intention of paying his inflated bill either.

but he has a valid basis to sue you for the additional amount. Whether he will or not is up to him. If I was him, I would be reporting you for theft of services.

As a side note, how is this different from stopping or reversing a credit card payment when there is a dispute? Credit card companies reverse payments for their customers when there is a dispute regarding service or goods, correct? Is that illegal as well?

because a merchant that accepts a credit card is bound by the merchant agreement they sign with any given credit card. The right to reverse the charges is found in that contract. As such, there are no similarities to your situation.

 

[JenniSam]

Justalayman: if you were to prosecute anyone for theft of services, I would certainly hope you did so for services you were contracted to complete. You seem like a fair and educated person. In my opinion, a fair and educated businessman would not spend hours rebuilding a motor when they were not contracted to do so. It is common business practice to notify the customer that the scope and price of the job has changed before doing the work. I have to question the business practices of a person who fixes what they want, then expects you to pay whatever they ask.

As for those to attempt to defraud others, I don't think they should rewarded by the courts. That is simply what happened in this case. I may have done things in the wrong order but I think the key here is intent. Maybe I should have refused to pay before giving the check, I have not and did not intend to defraud anyone. I understand your argument that my check for the full amount changes the agreement. But based on that theory, since he claims to have done the work, wouldn't it still be considered theft of services if I refused the full amount in the first place? Like I said, I don't know if he worked on the motor at all. I was in the living room, maybe 10-15 ft away from his job on my patio. Not once did I see him working on a motor or even on the side where the motor is located.

I came here seeking the opinions of others and I do appreciate people taking the time to provide input. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree, I have gained valuable information from others who have posted their point of view on this issue. If this does go to court, at the very least I have learned of a few different ways this can be argued and I can be prepared to address or use those arguments. I do know that he should send me a demand letter requesting payment before he files a civil suit. I don't know if its mandatory. If he does that, I may re-evaluate the situation. For now, balls in his court.

 

[TigerD]

If this does go to court, at the very least I have learned of a few different ways this can be argued and I can be prepared to address or use those arguments. I do know that he should send me a demand letter requesting payment before he files a civil suit. I don't know if its mandatory. If he does that, I may re-evaluate the situation. For now, balls in his court.

Or he can hand it off to a collection agency and you will pay the price of the negative credit hit, which will cost far more than $150 you complained about.

DC

 

[justalayman]

JenniSam;2847026]Justalayman: if you were to prosecute anyone for theft of services, I would certainly hope you did so for services you were contracted to complete. .

I don't disagree that there is something amiss with the repairman. You are the one that came here looking for advice and I am trying to give you the big picture, for your position. Stopping payment on a check and then unilaterally changing the amount of the invoice is not the right way to fix your problem. While it likely won't get to the level I suggested, there is a possibility it could.

As for those to attempt to defraud others, I don't think they should rewarded by the courts. That is simply what happened in this case.

but no court has done anything here. There is a possibility you could win, about the increased price but that doesn't change the fact the actions you took for your self help remedy were just wrong. They are two different concerns.

Maybe I should have refused to pay before giving the check,

BINGO!!!

I have not and did not intend to defraud anyone.

Not saying you are. Just saying what it can be presented as.

I understand your argument that my check for the full amount changes the agreement. But based on that theory, since he claims to have done the work, wouldn't it still be considered theft of services if I refused the full amount in the first place?

No because you did not agree to the greater amount and then try to cheat him. Once you accepted the bill as correct and paid it, you allowed the modification.

Like I said, I don't know if he worked on the motor at all. I was in the living room, maybe 10-15 ft away from his job on my patio. Not once did I see him working on a motor or even on the side where the motor is located.

I know a bit about motors and such. Were there any parts listed that were not part of the original quote?

.

I do know that he should send me a demand letter requesting payment before he files a civil suit. I don't know if its mandatory.

No, it isn't mandatory. He can head to the court in the morning and file suit if he wants to. It usually is better to attempt to settle out of court as it costs both sides money through spending time dealing with it that is not recoverable by going to court.


the right way to deal with it, for you, was: refuse to pay the added billing or sue him after you paid. Hopefully it will work out for you. If it does, take it as a lesson and thank your lucky starts it didn't turn into something serious.

 

[JenniSam]

I get you on the issue of stopping the check. Thanks for your posts!

The first receipt/quote says:
"Service Requested: "Check Leaks"

Only one part is listed in the description/pricing section. It simply says: "Checked out plumbing for freeze damage. Found Manifold assembly cracked. Must be replaced."

It lists a quote for $250 and then notes that I gave $105 toward the repair.

Second receipt/final bill lists:

3 Manifolds at ($15.00 ea) = $45.06
Misc Plumbing $17.00
12 Clamps ($1.00 ea) = $12.00
Shaft Seals= $15.00
2HP Impellar: $22.50
ORing= $5.00
3 Gaskets= ($1.50) $4.50

Under services performed it states:
Rebuilt 12 Port (I think this is what it says. Hard to read the writing there)
Manifold Assembly
Rebuilt Pump #2

 

[justalayman]

I get you on the issue of stopping the check. Thanks for your posts!

The first receipt/quote says:
"Service Requested: "Check Leaks"

Only one part is listed in the description/pricing section. It simply says: "Checked out plumbing for freeze damage. Found Manifold assembly cracked. Must be replaced."

It lists a quote for $250 and then notes that I gave $105 toward the repair.

Second receipt/final bill lists:

3 Manifolds at ($15.00 ea) = $45.06
Misc Plumbing $17.00
12 Clamps ($1.00 ea) = $12.00
Shaft Seals= $15.00
2HP Impellar: $22.50
ORing= $5.00
3 Gaskets= ($1.50) $4.50

Under services performed it states:
Rebuilt 12 Port (I think this is what it says. Hard to read the writing there)
Manifold Assembly
Rebuilt Pump #2

I don't see anything about a motor in that.

I'm not real knowledgeable about hot tubs in general but I suspect the 12 port manifold assembly is the part that distributes the water from the pump to the various jets. The "rebuilt pump #2" would be the rebuilding of a pump, not a motor. That coincides with the parts (impeller, shaft seals) noted in the estimate.

I see 121.06 in parts. So, that must leave $285.94 in labor. Since your original quote stated "manifold cracked", I can only guess the pump rebuild was not in the original quote. If it was the pump, I suspect it was a valid charge. Pumps are often damaged when there is water in them and then frozen, just as the manifold was. Why it wasn't caught in the first place I can't say. Maybe the manifold was cracked so badly he couldn't run the pump on the first trip but only after replacing the manifold and turning it on did he realize the pump was also damaged.

So, if that is the case:

should he have told you before doing the work? absolutely
who would win in court? hard to say. He might. You did end up with the benefit of the work so you did not get cheated. The reason he might not win is that you did not authorize the work and state you would not have.

My question is: after he fixed the manifold, if he walked up to you and said: the pump is also damaged. It will be $XXX.xx to repair. Do you want it fixed? What would you have said? If you would have gone ahead with it, knowing you do owe for the manifold repair anyway, you really owe him the balance of the bill. If not, then you are where you are and nobody knows what will happen next.

 

[JenniSam]

correction on the parts: Shaft seals were $19.00

From what he said, the motor and pump were functional but that the motor would have gone out in 2 days. My fiancé had already decided that if anything else went wrong, we would get rid of the tub. It was becoming a money pit. I damn near had to get a doctor’s note to get him to agree to the $250 repair, but I had a relapse and needed it. Maybe I would have snuck another $50 in there if the repairman came and said it was $50 more than he quoted. But $150 more... I would have said no thanks especially since the motor and pump were working. If it went out in 2 days then I would have to decide if I wanted him to come back out. But I think it would have been on craigslist the next day. I could have sold it for parts and put the money towards a newer tub.

He specifically stated that rebuilding the motor is what took up most of his time and is the bulk of the labor costs. Another poster questioned why he would have parts to rebuild my motor if he didn't plan to work on it ahead of time. You said you didn't see anything about a motor in the bill and that is part of my argument with the repairman. His math was all over the place. He said the motor took an extra 1.5 hours and he bills at $85 per hour. That takes me back the original quote that does not address an hourly rate at all, just a flat fee to fix a leak for $250. Maybe his not a crook and he’s just bad at being a repairman.

I don’t know if I would say I have benefited from the work since the tub is still leaking. I am sure he would come up with a reason why it’s not related to his previous repair. I'll wait to see what he does. If he takes me to court or sends me to collections, I have a period of time to decide if I want to pay the additional $150 before anything is added to my credit report or becomes a judgment. - Thanks!

 

[TigerD]

If he takes me to court or sends me to collections, I have a period of time to decide if I want to pay the additional $150 before anything is added to my credit report or becomes a judgment. - Thanks!

Where did you get that idea?
It's wrong by the way.

He can report to your credit tomorrow. There is no "no harm no foul" rule in collections.

DC