Parental Alienation

[Proserpina]

Hi there. Here is a video I put together documenting my personal experience with parental alienation. I'm curious what folks think the best next step might be.

Parental Alienation Syndrome--Real life example - YouTube

Thanks!

Dave

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? OH

No, I didn't click.

But my first thought would be, 'Why don't I go online and google a bit, and find out why PAS has been thoroughly discredited'.

 

[cyjeff]

You do know, of course, that PAS is a completely discredited condition forwarded by an admitted pediophile, right?

Parental Alienation is real.
Parental Alienation Syndrome says you want your daughters to sleep with you when your wife doesn't want to. Really.

You might want to do more research before you put stuff out on the internet.

Don't believe me? Google "Richard A. Gardner"... he killed himself when his completely unresearched and biased "conclusions" were finally destroyed in open court.

 

[Ohiogal]

I clicked. It is a wife screaming at her husband. Basically arguments at the end of a marriage. The pathetic thing is too many people buy into Parental Alienation Syndrome. Too bad people are NOT educated regarding parental alienation and the so-called syndrome (an excuse for pedophiles).

OP, you really want to be associated with pedophiles? If not, try changing your title to PARENTAL ALIENATION and leave off the syndrome. Because most of us do not want to help pedophiles in any way, shape or form.

 

[mistoffolees]

I clicked. It is a wife screaming at her husband. Basically arguments at the end of a marriage. The pathetic thing is too many people buy into Parental Alienation Syndrome. Too bad people are NOT educated regarding parental alienation and the so-called syndrome (an excuse for pedophiles).

OP, you really want to be associated with pedophiles? If not, try changing your title to PARENTAL ALIENATION and leave off the syndrome. Because most of us do not want to help pedophiles in any way, shape or form.

And the video didn't really appear to be about parental alienation, anyway. At least the first couple of minutes which is all I could stomach. Parents yelling at each other (or even a one-sided yelling match) is not parental alienation.

 

[father99782]

Pas

Thanks for the feedback. Of course I would not want to associate myself with anyone who supports pedophilia in any way. Also, I can definitely see how the concept of "parental alienation" could easily be used by an abusive parent to explain away the fact that one or more of their children do not want to spend time with them. But is it possible, just possible, that there are some decent, loving parents out there, from whom their children are alienated by false allegations and fear tactics? If this video were of a man repeatedly punching his wife, while screaming "I'm a f***ing good father," would you dismiss it as typical "arguments at the end of a marriage"? If a father, rather than a mother, had had all three of his children (ages 10, 12, and 13) sleeping in bed every night to "protect" them possible kidnapping by their mother, what would you call that? Please consider watching the entire video again, and imagine the genders reversed throughout? How would that play in the typical family court?

 

[mistoffolees]

Thanks for the feedback. Of course I would not want to associate myself with anyone who supports pedophilia in any way. Also, I can definitely see how the concept of "parental alienation" could easily be used by an abusive parent to explain away the fact that one or more of their children do not want to spend time with them. But is it possible, just possible, that there are some decent, loving parents out there, from whom their children are alienated by false allegations and fear tactics? If this video were of a man repeatedly punching his wife, while screaming "I'm a f***ing good father," would you dismiss it as typical "arguments at the end of a marriage"? If a father, rather than a mother, had had all three of his children (ages 10, 12, and 13) sleeping in bed every night to "protect" them possible kidnapping by their mother, what would you call that? Please consider watching the entire video again, and imagine the genders reversed throughout? How would that play in the typical family court?

Take your agenda somewhere else.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks for the feedback. Of course I would not want to associate myself with anyone who supports pedophilia in any way. Also, I can definitely see how the concept of "parental alienation" could easily be used by an abusive parent to explain away the fact that one or more of their children do not want to spend time with them. But is it possible, just possible, that there are some decent, loving parents out there, from whom their children are alienated by false allegations and fear tactics? If this video were of a man repeatedly punching his wife, while screaming "I'm a f***ing good father," would you dismiss it as typical "arguments at the end of a marriage"? If a father, rather than a mother, had had all three of his children (ages 10, 12, and 13) sleeping in bed every night to "protect" them possible kidnapping by their mother, what would you call that? Please consider watching the entire video again, and imagine the genders reversed throughout? How would that play in the typical family court?

Sorry but I agree with OG. This is typical fighting that signals the end of a marriage. It is not parental alienation.

A family court judge wouldn't even listen or watch your video, and even if someone one decided to watch it, its too obviously edited to be able to be entered into evidence.

You also obviously taped her in the home, where there is an expectation of privacy.

 

[Ohiogal]

Sorry but I agree with OG. This is typical fighting that signals the end of a marriage. It is not parental alienation.

A family court judge wouldn't even listen or watch your video, and even if someone one decided to watch it, its too obviously edited to be able to be entered into evidence.

You also obviously taped her in the home, where there is an expectation of privacy.

It doesn't matter that she was taped in her home. It was his home as well. He can tape conversations and it would not be an issue -- one party needs to consent in Ohio. And he is not law enforcement or using it for law enforcement. It is for a civil matter. So that portion of the argument matters not. But it is edited ridiculously so. And that in and of itself is a problem.

As for OP's post:

Originally Posted by father99782
Thanks for the feedback. Of course I would not want to associate myself with anyone who supports pedophilia in any way. Also, I can definitely see how the concept of "parental alienation" could easily be used by an abusive parent to explain away the fact that one or more of their children do not want to spend time with them. But is it possible, just possible, that there are some decent, loving parents out there, from whom their children are alienated by false allegations and fear tactics?

Yes there are parents who are being alienated from their children. That does happen. THIS posting though was not of such.

If this video were of a man repeatedly punching his wife, while screaming "I'm a f***ing good father," would you dismiss it as typical "arguments at the end of a marriage"?

PUNCHING someone is not the same as yelling. Yelling is normal at the end of a marriage. Punching and violence is not. That is an unhealthy abusive situation. Abuse in and of itself is NOT alienation however. Abuse and alienation are both negative but they are different.

If a father, rather than a mother, had had all three of his children (ages 10, 12, and 13) sleeping in bed every night to "protect" them possible kidnapping by their mother, what would you call that?

Married parents can NOT kidnap their children if there are no court orders. Married parents both have equal rights to their children. Sleeping in bed with the three children nightly? What are the genders of the children? There could be issues either direction but not kidnapping and it does not show alienation.

Please consider watching the entire video again, and imagine the genders reversed throughout? How would that play in the typical family court?

It is NOT parental alienation. It is NOT admissible due to the editing. It is a big hypothetical. It does NOT prove parental alienation. You do NOT understand what alienation is. Educate yourself.

I am in OHIO domestic courts consistently and constantly. I understand them. And I am telling you right now that this is NOT alienation that you have described. It is pathetic behavior but typical of an end of a marriage.

 

[father99782]

pas

Ohiogal,

Could you describe a scenario where the term "parental alienation" would be appropriate?

 

[Ohiogal]

Ohiogal,

Could you describe a scenario where the term "parental alienation" would be appropriate?

Telling the child that new boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse is the "real parent" and the actual parent is nobody.
Telling the child that the parent is a horrible horrible person who has done nothing but hurt said parent and child due to selfishness/sex and what not.
Showing the child all divorce pleadings and making sure the child knows the other parent is to blame for everything.
Refusing to allow the child any contact with the other parent.

Those are all things that LEAD to parental alienation. But there is not parental alienation unless the CHILD decides to fight the relationship with other parent and refuses to recognize the relationship through acting out or something of that nature.

 

[father99782]

Pa

Thanks. Three of the four things you listed are true in my situation. My spouse actually gave my 10 year old daughter legal documents with certain phrases highlighted in yellow. And then my daugther came to me with it in her hand and said, "See, you're trying to take Mom away from us forever."

Contact with my kids was denied and the locks of our marital home were changed. (I have no history of abuse whatsoever). As you hear in the video, my spouse threatened to call the police if I simply entered our marital home to see our kids. She did--and it was only the audio tapes that saved me in court. Should she not have been punished for making false allegations?

There are dozens of similar facets to my case, of which the submitted audio is only one. I guess my point is not to make a legal argument that will stand up in court, but to give people a visceral feel for the toxic atmosphere out of which Parental Alienation arises.

 

[Ohiogal]

Thanks. Three of the four things you listed are true in my situation. My spouse actually gave my 10 year old daughter legal documents with certain phrases highlighted in yellow. And then my daugther came to me with it in her hand and said, "See, you're trying to take Mom away from us forever."

Contact with my kids was denied and the locks of our marital home were changed. (I have no history of abuse whatsoever). As you hear in the video, my spouse threatened to call the police if I simply entered our marital home to see our kids. She did--and it was only the audio tapes that saved me in court. Should she not have been punished for making false allegations?

There are dozens of similar facets to my case, of which the submitted audio is only one. I guess my point is not to make a legal argument that will stand up in court, but to give people a visceral feel for the toxic atmosphere out of which Parental Alienation arises.

Truthfully, Dave, posting that crap on the internet means you are engaging in it as well. Why? Oh yeah, because kids nowadays have the internet. You publish it on a public forum (Youtube is popular among the young'ens). You are contributing to the toxicity. No one is excusing your spouse's behavior. No one. But there are more mature appropriate legal methods of dealing with this.

Tit for tat doesn't make you better -- it makes you just the same as her. You may not be acting as directly HOWEVER kids pick up on this stuff.

So have you fought to get your children a GAL? Into counseling? Have you filed for temporary orders for custody/visitation/support/possession of the marital house? Should I continue?

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks. Three of the four things you listed are true in my situation. My spouse actually gave my 10 year old daughter legal documents with certain phrases highlighted in yellow. And then my daugther came to me with it in her hand and said, "See, you're trying to take Mom away from us forever."

Contact with my kids was denied and the locks of our marital home were changed. (I have no history of abuse whatsoever). As you hear in the video, my spouse threatened to call the police if I simply entered our marital home to see our kids. She did--and it was only the audio tapes that saved me in court. Should she not have been punished for making false allegations?

There are dozens of similar facets to my case, of which the submitted audio is only one. I guess my point is not to make a legal argument that will stand up in court, but to give people a visceral feel for the toxic atmosphere out of which Parental Alienation arises.

Do your children hate you? Are your children afraid of you? Do your child not want anything to do with you? If you cannot answer yes to any of the above, parental alienation hasn't happened.

The most that you could do is ask for a clause to be included in the custody orders that states that neither parent is to disparage the other parent in front of the children.

However, honestly, most of what you are describing is very "classic" when a divorce is happening. The vast majority of the time things calm down once the divorce is out of the way and court orders have been made.

 

[father99782]

Pa

Yeah, we had our lawyers, we had a GAL, and we had a psychologist, and we had and continue to have counselors. But what do you do when, over the course of months, these entities completely bankrupt you and you are completely maxed out on credit? What if your spouse has no income and you are required to pay for both sides? I had no choice but to settle or go per se and risk a lesser fate for my kids.

I have great respect for the legal profession, but the overall cost of the process was unconscionable. When I refer to "raising awareness" in the video, I am not just referring to Parental Alienation, but changes that need to be made with the system at large.

I think it is extremely unlikely that my kids would ever stumble upon a Parental Alienation video. They have never heard me utter these words, and they have never heard me badmouth their mother, for that matter. I keep EVERYTHING from them.

I have actually done a lot of reading on Parental Alienation Syndrome, both in the lay and in the medical literature. Regarding earlier comments, could it be that the term PAS has outgrown its original usage by Dr. Gardner? I think this is pretty common in medicine, wherein most nomenclature dates back centuries. And, I think it is unfair to dismiss a syndrome/disorder/entity because the original author (Gardner) made some stupid comments about pedophilia. Galen and Hippocrates said some pretty stupid stuff as well.

 

[LdiJ]

Yeah, we had our lawyers, we had a GAL, and we had a psychologist, and we had and continue to have counselors. But what do you do when, over the course of months, these entities completely bankrupt you and you are completely maxed out on credit? What if your spouse has no income and you are required to pay for both sides? I had no choice but to settle or go per se and risk a lesser fate for my kids.

I have great respect for the legal profession, but the overall cost of the process was unconscionable. When I refer to "raising awareness" in the video, I am not just referring to Parental Alienation, but changes that need to be made with the system at large.

I think it is extremely unlikely that my kids would ever stumble upon a Parental Alienation video. They have never heard me utter these words, and they have never heard me badmouth their mother, for that matter. I keep EVERYTHING from them.

I have actually done a lot of reading on Parental Alienation Syndrome, both in the lay and in the medical literature. Regarding earlier comments, could it be that the term PAS has outgrown its original usage by Dr. Gardner? I think this is pretty common in medicine, wherein most nomenclature dates back centuries. And, I think it is unfair to dismiss a syndrome/disorder/entity because the original author (Gardner) made some stupid comments about pedophilia. Galen and Hippocrates said some pretty stupid stuff as well.

PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome) is what has been completely discredited...and no, it has not outgrown Dr. Gardner.

Parental Alienation, or alienation in other contexts is totally recognized. What you need to get rid of is the PAS in your vocabulary and simply say Parental Alienation. Alienation is NOT a syndrome or disorder and never will be. Syndrome or disorder implies a form of mental illness. It is not necessary to be mentally ill in order to alienate people...or in order to alienate your children from their other parent. All it takes is being angry, hurt and unkind.