Duress/legal search

[Free_Advice]

B
In this case the administrator may have been wrong, by bringing them back. He won't have been wrong for punishing the student, for having the brass knuckles at school.

The administrator will have no personal civil liability & the police will do nothing (not should they). The question of the search is a big issue .. they were off campus and then dragged back into school ... here I think the admin loses the right to search he otherwise would have had.

So a civil suit may be pursued against the administrator in his personal/official capacity (see 42 USC 1983) and possibly get a back-end case against the school district. The district is likely required to pay for any personal suit for the administrator as its most likely that he was acting in the scope of his employment.

Anybody's thoughts on this aspect .. OH hinted at this but I may have not interpreted his writings correctly

One can sue a public official under the reasons why 42 USC 1983 is utilized in either or both a personal and official capacity. 42 USC 1983 was written a long time ago and I don't think its authors understood the ramifications of the code.

 

[Free_Advice]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
TEXAS
The administrator checks the bag and discovers metallic knuckles wrapped in note book paper. ?

Were felony or other criminal charges laid against this student? In most states, its a felony...if he got none, he is lucky

 

[davew128]

The issue for the NON use of the bus is exactly that- that prior notification should exist for the student to NOT take the bus. Your argument was that they don't have to take the bus if they have a job, or somewhere else to go.. I guess I missed the part where you mentioned prior notification.. oh wait, you didn't. You pointed out they don't need any.

And I was right.

No, it's not built to work around the student schedule- it's there as a punishment and the teachers availability.

I'm going to recommend you stop now because you DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Why do you think morning detention exists, Junior?

I know when I suffered a detention, it was not uncommon to have a 1 hour detention- strange.. I would have been late to be somewhere else- like a job, or a friends house to hang out, or visiting a family member... I guess the school not having any prior notification of this- never realised that I had these commitments.

Your memory is about as reliable as your posts.

The point is if the students were to be excused from using the bus, then prior notification should have been given to the school - from the parents.

Riiiiiight. because children are now prisoners. Why don't you shackle them and chain them to each other while you're at it?

Last time I checked- the OP posted that the students are BUS RIDERS and never had a car.

Last time I checked you were still wrong and under your faulty legal theory, the same premise applies whether the students are in elementary school or old enough to drive.

Bottom line- they were not dismissed from school and were still on school property when they violated school rules by 1) not using the bus 2) refusing to respond when the school administrator called them and 3) fleeing from the administrator.
The only thing that is in question is the 'choke hold almost'.... completely unknown variable on the exact circumstances and what the limitation of restraint the school representative is allowed by law.

Bottom line, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, and oh yeah, the school day was over. Class dismissed.

 

[asiny]

And I was right.

Of course you were. Because you supplied some form of experience with this.. unlike cyjeff who speaks from no experience or similair understanding.

I'm going to recommend you stop now because you DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Why do you think morning detention exists, Junior?

Asked and answered. Perhaps your memory is failing as much as you believe mine is?

Your memory is about as reliable as your posts.

Seeing as you are using the vernacular, Junior, my memory is quite sound being such a young whipper-snapper.

Riiiiiight. because children are now prisoners. Why don't you shackle them and chain them to each other while you're at it?

This is the 2nd correct thing you have said.
From when that student steps onto the school bus, to when they step off the school bus, the student is a ward of the state- not in the sense of their being a legal judgement, indicated by the court, or because they may be removed from their families home- as during that time the state is responsible for them.
The student cannot leave school premises, without prior permission or authorisation. The student must adhere to the school district rules.
And if you hang on the 'ward of the state' comment (after my explanation of the use of the term) you are just being argumentative for the sake of it.

Last time I checked you were still wrong and under your faulty legal theory, the same premise applies whether the students are in elementary school or old enough to drive.

Not true. If the student is old enough to drive- and does so- they become exempt from having to use the school bus- however, in this case, this is (also) an unknown variable along with how much 'restraint' the school administrator may have used.

Bottom line, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, and oh yeah, the school day was over. Class dismissed.

The school day is over when the student is off the school bus.
For reasons of clarification- in Texas a school district cannot make use of a school bus if the route carries less than 10 students. If this student felt like not taking the bus on a regular basis - agreeable, an unknown variable - the school district lose the use of the school bus along that particular route.

Once a student is 'enrolled' to use the supplied school bus system- they don't have the right to decide not to use it because they [insert whatever reason here]. They must use the school bus, unless prior notification is given. If even not for the reasons pointed out, for the simple reason that the school district could lose use of the bus.
Your point is about as valid that a parent can just take their child out of school for any reason- without any explanation to the school.. which, as you may be aware, is not the case. A parent MUST provide a written explanation as to why their child did/is not attending school. And no, 'please excuse my child from school 30 minutes early every day, because they have a job, visit a family member or go to a classmate's home near the school' is not a valid excuse.

And what's with the Junior comment? Are you just attempting to be funny regarding my post count being, below, a 1/4 of yours or is it relating to my experience- which you have no idea about?

 

[davew128]

Asked and answered. Perhaps your memory is failing as much as you believe mine is?

Your answer was incorrect. Try again.

The school day is over when the student is off the school bus.
For reasons of clarification- in Texas a school district cannot make use of a school bus if the route carries less than 10 students. If this student felt like not taking the bus on a regular basis - agreeable, an unknown variable - the school district lose the use of the school bus along that particular route.

Sounds like a problem....for the school district.

Once a student is 'enrolled' to use the supplied school bus system- they don't have the right to decide not to use it because they [insert whatever reason here]. They must use the school bus, unless prior notification is given.

Sorry, as many courts have stated, rights don't end at the door of the school.

Your point is about as valid that a parent can just take their child out of school for any reason- without any explanation to the school.. which, as you may be aware, is not the case. A parent MUST provide a written explanation as to why their child did/is not attending school. And no, 'please excuse my child from school 30 minutes early every day, because they have a job, visit a family member or go to a classmate's home near the school' is not a valid excuse.

Failed analogy. Quite honestly, if I were a student and someone tried to forcibly retrieve me back to the schoolgrounds AFTER THE DAY WAS OVER, there'd be a bigger legal problem. However, I do believe self defense protects a child who is being assaulted by an adult.

 

[cyjeff]

Really now. So you're telling me that Bruce, a junior, cannot get a ride to go somewhere after school with his buddy Alfred, also a junior who has a car and drives to school.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Why is that hard to understand?

Children are governed by the wishes of their parents. If Bruce and Alfred are not riding the bus, the parents or guardians must inform the school of the change of plans.

Now, will all schools go out of their way to enforce this? Depends on the school, I guess. But all schools can.

If OP tells us the name of the high school, we can actually pull a copy of the student handbook and I will quote it for you.

At my wife's high school (where my eldest also attended), the kids leaving school had all the flexibility in determining their way home as a precision drum corps. If Bruce wanted to ride home with Alfred, the child had to show an administrator or homeroom teacher a note from the parents STATING that this was acceptable.

 

[asiny]

Sorry, as many courts have stated, rights don't end at the door of the school.

If the rules of school don't extend beyond the school campus, how can they, legally, enforce school rules that occur between 300' to 500' off school property on public property?
If you need to see where I got the above from, please review the TEC rules and regulations.

Here is just one section that refers to how far school rules can apply- I am not saying this is in relation to this incident, just presenting it as how far school rules can extend.

TEC §37.124. DISRUPTION OF CLASSES. (a) A person commits an offense if the person, on school property or on public property within 500 feet of school property, alone or in concert with others, intentionally disrupts the conduct of classes or other school activities.

If the school administrator felt that by the students not using the school bus, and heading out by themselves, could have constituted in harm coming to the students then the use of physical restraint is allowed under TEC §89.1053. Procedures for Use of Restraint.
Although, if you were referring to their 4th Amendment rights;

NEW JERSEY v TLO-
In a separate, concurring opinion, Justice Powell (joined by Justice O'Connor) stated that while he agreed with the Court's opinion, he felt that students in primary and secondary educational settings should not be afforded the same level of protection for search and seizures as adults and juveniles in non-school settings.

After reviewing a few Texas school district sites, I was able to find the following rule.. I wonder if these apply to OPs school district?

Site 1) Students must ride their assigned bus.
Site 2) Students must ride their assigned bus unless they bring a note from home. Students suspended from their regular bus may not ride another bus under any circumstances.
Site 3) You must use your assigned stop at all times.
Site 4) Students must ride their assigned buses. Any deviation to this rule requires written permission from a parent or guardian.

I'm sorry- I was so busy getting factual information together, I forgot you were saying something about my being wrong on something?

I agree with many other users, even yourself, that unknown variables are in play here- specifically the extent of restraint used. But based on reviewing the TEC rules - that allow restraint (in certain events) and searches that set aside the 4th amendment (even if a 4th violation, they can still be expelled if the matter was dismissed criminally) - and reviewing multiple school districts rules on that students who are eligible to use the school bus, MUST use the school bus... I have trouble seeing your point of view... legally speaking.

Now come back and show me how you are going to explain to Junior how the above does not apply here. And do us all a favour, bring some fact behind you- and not just your opinion how they don't HAVE to use the bus and the school doesn't need to be notified if they have a job or [insert something better to do here].

And to end, using your own completely unneeded arrogant attitude. Class dismissed.

 

[davew128]

If the rules of school don't extend beyond the school campus, how can they, legally, enforce school rules that occur between 300' to 500' off school property on public property?
If you need to see where I got the above from, please review the TEC rules and regulations.

School was over. Suggest you accept that.

If the school administrator felt that by the students not using the school bus, and heading out by themselves, could have constituted in harm coming to the students then the use of physical restraint is allowed under TEC §89.1053. Procedures for Use of Restraint.
Although, if you were referring to their 4th Amendment rights;

The students weren't in a school setting....

After reviewing a few Texas school district sites, I was able to find the following rule.. I wonder if these apply to OPs school district?

School guidelines are not law. Any law to that effect would be unconstitutional.

I'm sorry- I was so busy getting factual information together, I forgot you were saying something about my being wrong on something?

We could narrow the scope and keep it simple at about 90% of your post.

I agree with many other users, even yourself, that unknown variables are in play here- specifically the extent of restraint used. But based on reviewing the TEC rules - that allow restraint (in certain events) and searches that set aside the 4th amendment (even if a 4th violation, they can still be expelled if the matter was dismissed criminally) - and reviewing multiple school districts rules on that students who are eligible to use the school bus, MUST use the school bus... I have trouble seeing your point of view... legally speaking.

Let me spell it out for you. Free will. Dominion and control. Right cross to the jaw of anyone who lays their hands on the student in a forceful manner off of school property in a non-school event. Students are not pets or property, you might want to consider that.

Now come back and show me how you are going to explain to Junior how the above does not apply here. And do us all a favour, bring some fact behind you- and not just your opinion how they don't HAVE to use the bus and the school doesn't need to be notified if they have a job or [insert something better to do here].

Simple. Like Nike says, just do it.

And to end, using your own completely unneeded arrogant attitude. Class dismissed.

Except for Asiny who will report tomorrow morning at 7am for morning detention since staying after school will interfere with his tennis practice.

 

[davew128]

Why is that hard to understand?

Because this is school not a halfway house. Because it flies in the face of common sense. It wasn't all that long ago that I was in high school and I can tell you right now I would laugh in the face of anyone telling to get on a bus when I had other plans.

Children are governed by the wishes of their parents. If Bruce and Alfred are not riding the bus, the parents or guardians must inform the school of the change of plans.

It's none of the school's business. Legally, yes the PARENTS have the say. I daresay that in 95% of the instances we can envision, they will approve or not care.

At my wife's high school (where my eldest also attended), the kids leaving school had all the flexibility in determining their way home as a precision drum corps. If Bruce wanted to ride home with Alfred, the child had to show an administrator or homeroom teacher a note from the parents STATING that this was acceptable.

Do they get locked in cages between classes too so they don't wander off? Seriously, this type of environment is exactly why kids today are so pathetic.

 

[asiny]

To the OP- if you ever return- classes were dismissed, but the two students were still under the rules of the school until they step off the school bus which they were assigned to.
The students were found eligible for the bus use, and their parents had to apply for the use too. The students don't have the option to decide whether to use the bus or not without prior notification.. when they decided NOT to use the school bus, they violated school rules.
They violated the requests of the school administrator and ran.
Unknown variable- were they within the 300' to 500' from school property when they were 'caught'?
Unknown variable- what was the extent of the 'retstraint'. You say 'choke hold almost'.. as others have asked, can you elaborate on this?

davew128 is correct that school rules are not legal law- however the user would also have you believe that once school is dismissed- school rules no longer apply.
School rules apply to students from when they step on the bus in the morning- to when they exit the bus at the end of the day as they are, legally, on school grounds/property.
For other students, who don't use the bus, the rules apply to when they arrive onto school property- to when they depart school property- although it becomes a grey area when they are seen doing something that is questionable by school representatives within 300' to 500' from school property (as per the TEC rules).

At this point davew128 is arguing for the sake of it.. Having been provided with how far school rules apply, that students must take the school bus and cannot deviate without prior notification- the user still aims to argue they are right, regardless of presented FACTUAL school rules (not legal law) which apply regardless of the legal positioning or not.
But also, as noted, even if the weapon is dismissed (if ever criminal proceedings are sought) due to a 4th amendment violation- the school is well within their rights to expel the student due to the find. As listed in case law and presented with the U.S. Supreme court decision.

To answer the OPs only question;
Was this legal after they were dimissed and brought back to campus?
By law- probably not. But by the applicable TEC rules- yes.. again, depending on the answers of the unknown variables. Although without them davew128 seems to have the answers, regardless of not having the full facts.

I think this is where davew128, cyjeff and myself differentiate- I have agreed that 'legally' (with davew128 position) it is probably not legal. Cyjeff and I are on the same page, TEC rules still apply - and that, I believe, is where this argument is coming from.

**These are my thoughts based on the discussion between davew128, cyjeff and myself**
This is a legal website and, I believe, davew128 is not considering the TEC rules as law (as right he is too), but this is part of a much larger argument- In this case I feel both TEC and legal law must be taking into consideration. Davew128 seems to not be looking at that- the law, is the law, is the law.. but we all know the law still allows organisations to have their own rules that can be tougher than the law (or softer, depending on your stance).
Whilst the TEC rules are not legal law- they would still be taken into consideration in this situation.

 

[Hornet62]

The fact that the kids were called back before they left the school grounds is the same as a person being chased by a cop and crossing state lines; the cop/administrator/principal can continue the chase and bring the person back legally. In most places, the school is responsible for that child until they are delivered back to the parents control in whatever method is normal for that child. This includes the parent picking them up, them riding with another parent or student, them walking, and/or them riding the bus. For the student to change from what is normal for them, the school must be notified of the change beforehand.

 

[davew128]

The fact that the kids were called back before they left the school grounds is the same as a person being chased by a cop and crossing state lines;

School was dismissed.....

 

[CavemanLawyer]

School was dismissed.....

The rules and laws governing schools, students, and campus safety do no end when the last bell rings. The time just after school ends is probably the time when students are most at risk.

Texas has laws that govern how students sit on the bus and what type of seatbelts they have to wear. (Education Code Sec. 34.004 & Sec. 34.012.)To suggest that a school administrator cannot exercise some amount of authority over a student on campus shortly after school let out is ridiculous.

 

[davew128]

The rules and laws governing schools, students, and campus safety do no end when the last bell rings. The time just after school ends is probably the time when students are most at risk.

Texas has laws that govern how students sit on the bus and what type of seatbelts they have to wear. (Education Code Sec. 34.004 & Sec. 34.012.)To suggest that a school administrator cannot exercise some amount of authority over a student on campus shortly after school let out is ridiculous.

To suggest that a student must comply with an administrator's demands after school is dismissed and the student is otherwise free to go is equally ridiculous.

 

[CdwJava]

To suggest that a student must comply with an administrator's demands after school is dismissed and the student is otherwise free to go is equally ridiculous.

Except when the law says they can.

In loco parentis.

Schools CAN, and in many states DO exercise jurisdiction and authority over students to varying degrees even before and after school.

In this incident we do not know the situation. We do not know the circumstances as they really existed, we do not know the rules governing bus use, we do not even know the ages and grades of the children involved!

If the children's parents want to pursue the matter as some sort of an assault, they can call the cops. Of course, this might result in criminal charges against at least ONE of the students involved, but that's the choice of the parents. Of course, there may have been no physical contact or "assault" at all.

We know very few details.

The bottom line is that the student facing disciplinary action can appeal that action and can even hire an attorney to aid in it. Maybe next time the students will follow the rules and also NOT bring unlawful weapons onto school grounds. Oh, and if they were fleeing to go somewhere else, the parents had best take heed because it is quite likely the kids were going to be engaged in some nefarious activity as opposed to an unannounced run to the library.