Gun ownership

[mistoffolees]

Fact is that OP never stated he was disqualified to own a gun. ASSUMING he was based merely on the fact that he was institutionalized when he was a child would be like assuming somebody has a felony record because they were arrested for something. I took OP's question to mean if he would pass the background check and he might not have known that you can buy a rifle in Texas without needing a check in the first place.

Baloney. He specifically provided his mental illness background so it was clear that he wanted to know if a person who was diagnosed with a mental illness could own a gun.

I did not say he couldn't. I said that a person with the listed diagnoses could not - and left it up to him to determine if he fell into that category.

That's a decision the good people of Texas have made and I'm not going to censor something I know about the law that might help somebody on the off chance somebody may do something illegal with that knowledge. I'm not their parent and I'm not a cop.

IOW, you provided him a way to circumvent the law - which is illegal.

And furthermore, nothing I said constituted advice. I simply informed him of the law.

You simply told him that he could bypass the law by buying directly from a private owner. Since the law says a person with certain mental illnesses cannot OWN a gun, that would be illegal if he is in that category.

 

[swalsh411]

You're entitled to your opinion. The information I provided was legally correct. I'm not going to debate you any more on the topic.

 

[mistoffolees]

You're entitled to your opinion. The information I provided was legally correct. I'm not going to debate you any more on the topic.

Good. It would have been better if you had never suggested to OP a way to circumvent the law in the first place, but I guess stopping now is better than nothing.

 

[texaswoodworker]

Hey guys, I'm 99.99% sure that I was never diagnosed with a mental illness. I think I was just there for an evaluation. They never told me I had a illness an they never put me on meds. No therapy, (Some counciling with me and my mom but nothing major and that happend a while after I was released) No anything Can I legally walk into a gun store, Give the cashier money, fill out the paperwork, and walk out with a gun?

 

[mistoffolees]

Hey guys, I'm 99.99% sure that I was never diagnosed with a mental illness. I think I was just there for an evaluation. They never told me I had a illness an they never put me on meds. No therapy, (Some counciling with me and my mom but nothing major and that happend a while after I was released) No anything Can I legally walk into a gun store, Give the cashier money, fill out the paperwork, and walk out with a gun?

Once again, it is extremely unlikely that you were locked up for weeks simply because you were a brat. Go back and get a copy of your records to see what really happened.

But if there was no mental illness diagnosed, then you should be able to buy a gun. They will go through whatever background checking is required by law for the type of gun you wish to buy.

 

[CavemanLawyer]

I cannot find any law in Texas that prohibits someone from purchasing or owning a firearm due to mental illness, prior mental health commitment, etc... I think that website posted earlier is just misreading the applicable Texas statute and drawing the right conclusion from the wrong law.

It is federal law that prohibits licensed firearms dealers from selling to a "federal prohibited person," and it is legislation that was passed through the highly publicized Brady Bill. I don't deal with Federal law so I won't comment on what all Federal law prohibits when it comes to gun ownership/purchase, but I do know that a licensed dealer is required to do a background check to see if you qualify as a prohibited person.

The only Texas laws that deal with this issue are Government Code Sec. 411.052 and 411.0521, and they don't prohibit anything. These law merely create the mechanism for information to get from the Courts/institutions to DPS so that it can then be reported to the FBI for entry in the background database (NICS.)

Here are the Texas statutes below. If you fall within any one of these categories then you are a federally prohibited person and you can assume it states so in NICS.

Sec. 411.052. FEDERAL FIREARM REPORTING. (a) In this section, "federal prohibited person information" means information that identifies an individual as:

(1) a person ordered by a court to receive inpatient mental health services under Chapter 574, Health and Safety Code;

(2) a person acquitted in a criminal case by reason of insanity or lack of mental responsibility, regardless of whether the person is ordered by a court to receive inpatient treatment or residential care under Chapter 46C, Code of Criminal Procedure;

(3) a person determined to have mental retardation and committed by a court for long-term placement in a residential care facility under Chapter 593, Health and Safety Code;

(4) an incapacitated adult individual for whom a court has appointed a guardian of the individual under Chapter XIII, Probate Code, based on the determination that the person lacks the mental capacity to manage the person's affairs; or

(5) a person determined to be incompetent to stand trial under Chapter 46B, Code of Criminal Procedure.

(b) The department by rule shall establish a procedure to provide federal prohibited person information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for use with the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Except as otherwise provided by state law, the department may disseminate federal prohibited person information under this subsection only to the extent necessary to allow the Federal Bureau of Investigation to collect and maintain a list of persons who are prohibited under federal law from engaging in certain activities with respect to a firearm.

(c) The department shall grant access to federal prohibited person information to the person who is the subject of the information.

(d) Federal prohibited person information maintained by the department is confidential information for the use of the department and, except as otherwise provided by this section and other state law, may not be disseminated by the department.

(e) The department by rule shall establish a procedure to correct department records and transmit those corrected records to the Federal Bureau of Investigation when a person provides:

(1) a copy of a judicial order or finding that a person is no longer an incapacitated adult or is entitled to relief from disabilities under Section 574.088, Health and Safety Code; or

(2) proof that the person has obtained notice of relief from disabilities under 18 U.S.C. Section 925.

Sec. 411.0521. REPORT TO DEPARTMENT CONCERNING CERTAIN PERSONS' ACCESS TO FIREARMS. (a) The clerk of the court shall prepare and forward to the department the information described by Subsection (b) not later than the 30th day after the date the court:

(1) orders a person to receive inpatient mental health services under Chapter 574, Health and Safety Code;

(2) acquits a person in a criminal case by reason of insanity or lack of mental responsibility, regardless of whether the person is ordered to receive inpatient treatment or residential care under Chapter 46C, Code of Criminal Procedure;

(3) commits a person determined to have mental retardation for long-term placement in a residential care facility under Chapter 593, Health and Safety Code;

(4) appoints a guardian of the incapacitated adult individual under Chapter XIII, Probate Code, based on the determination that the person lacks the mental capacity to manage the person's affairs;

(5) determines a person is incompetent to stand trial under Chapter 46B, Code of Criminal Procedure; or

(6) finds a person is entitled to relief from disabilities under Section 574.088, Health and Safety Code.

(b) The clerk of the court shall prepare and forward the following information under Subsection (a):

(1) the complete name, race, and sex of the person;

(2) any known identifying number of the person, including social security number, driver's license number, or state identification number;

(3) the person's date of birth; and

(4) the federal prohibited person information that is the basis of the report required by this section.

(c) If practicable, the clerk of the court shall forward to the department the information described by Subsection (b) in an electronic format prescribed by the department.

(d) If an order previously reported to the department under Subsection (a) is reversed by order of any court, the clerk shall notify the department of the reversal not later than 30 days after the clerk receives the mandate from the appellate court.

(e) The duty of a clerk to prepare and forward information under this section is not affected by:

(1) any subsequent appeal of the court order;

(2) any subsequent modification of the court order; or

(3) the expiration of the court order.

 

[mistoffolees]

I cannot find any law in Texas that prohibits someone from purchasing or owning a firearm due to mental illness, prior mental health commitment, etc... I think that website posted earlier is just misreading the applicable Texas statute and drawing the right conclusion from the wrong law.

Sorry, but the source is pretty clear. Let me repeat it for you:
Most States Say Mental Illness Reason to Bar Gun Ownership
"Texas law prohibits the ownership and carrying of guns by those with certain psychiatric diagnoses, including schizophrenia, delusional disorder, bipolar disorder, chronic dementia, dissociative identity disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, and antisocial personality disorder. In addition, gun restrictions are in place for five years following an involuntary psychiatric hospitalization, inpatient or residential treatment for substance abuse, diagnosis of alcohol or drug dependence, or diagnosis of mental illness by a licensed physician."

Or this:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/meansmatter/files/State_Laws_re_Firearms.pdf
"The eligibility requirements include no record of addictions or mental illness."

Then, for concealed handguns, there's:
Texas Department of Public Safety - Courtesy, Service, Protection
"(8) "Unsound mind" means the mental condition of a person who:

(A) has been adjudicated mentally incompetent, mentally ill, or not guilty of a criminal offense by reason of insanity;

(B) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as being characterized by a mental disorder or infirmity that renders the person incapable of managing the person's self or the person's affairs, unless the person furnishes a certificate from a licensed physician stating that the person is no longer disabled or under any medication for the treatment of a mental or psychiatric disorder;"
and
"(a) A person is eligible for a license to carry a concealed handgun if the person:

(7) is not a person of unsound mind;"

It is federal law that prohibits licensed firearms dealers from selling to a "federal prohibited person," and it is legislation that was passed through the highly publicized Brady Bill. I don't deal with Federal law so I won't comment on what all Federal law prohibits when it comes to gun ownership/purchase, but I do know that a licensed dealer is required to do a background check to see if you qualify as a prohibited person.

Try this:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/meansmatter/files/State_Laws_re_Firearms.pdf

Title I of the Gun Control Act of 1968 was to ban mail-order sales of firearms and ammunition, confine the purchase of firearms to the buyer’s state of residence, and prohibit certain classes of persons from purchasing, receiving or transporting firearms or ammunition in interstate commerce; individuals adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to any mental institution, addicted to or an unlawful user of marijuana, or a stimulant, depressant, or narcotic drug.

 

[texaswoodworker]

In addition, gun restrictions are in place for five years following an involuntary psychiatric hospitalization, inpatient or residential treatment for substance abuse, diagnosis of alcohol or drug dependence, or diagnosis of mental illness by a licensed physician."

It's been 8 years. Wouldn't that mean that any restrictions would no longer be in place?

I think what I'll do is just go try to buy a gun from a store. If I get it, There are no problems. If I don't get it, I will sue and appeal as far as possible if need be.

 

[Free_Advice]

It's been 8 years. Wouldn't that mean that any restrictions would no longer be in place?

I think what I'll do is just go try to buy a gun from a store. If I get it, There are no problems. If I don't get it, I will sue and appeal as far as possible if need be.

Exactly ...
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

You have not been ADJUDICATED as mentally ill .. you can buy the gun ... I understood that from my first post ... & u can buy it legally, no issues

 

[mistoffolees]

It's been 8 years. Wouldn't that mean that any restrictions would no longer be in place?

The law doesn't have any time limits on it. But since you haven't bothered to find out the details of your detention, no one can help you. And I still don't believe for a second that you were locked up simply because you were a brat.

I think what I'll do is just go try to buy a gun from a store. If I get it, There are no problems. If I don't get it, I will sue and appeal as far as possible if need be.

Wrong.

Even if the gun shop makes a mistake and gives you a gun or if you buy it from a private party, there are two problems:

1. It is illegal for you to own a gun. See the links I provided. If you are caught with the gun later, you can be tried and sent to jail for your crime.

2. If you buy it from a gun shop and lie about the questions below, you can also be penalized for perjury.

And how are you going to sue a gun store for following legal procedures? If they are following the law, you have no grounds to sue them - and you're likely to end up paying your own expenses plus theirs.

While the 2nd Amendment gives you the right to bear arms, it has been thoroughly established that that right is not absolute and can be restricted for sufficient reasons.

Exactly ...
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

You have not been ADJUDICATED as mentally ill .. you can buy the gun ... I understood that from my first post ... & u can buy it legally, no issues

You didn't read far enough. The next phrase is: "OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

Heck, let's read the details for question 11 in the link that YOU provided:

Questiou ll.h. - 11.1. Defiuition of Prohihited Person: Generally, 18
U.S.c. § 922 prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in
or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: has becn convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence; has been convicted of a felonv or any other crime. punishable by imprisonment for a tenn exceeding one y;~r (this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less); is a fugitive from justice; is an unlawful user of. or
addicted to, marijuana or any depressant. stimulant. or narcotic drug, or any other controllcd substance; has been adjudicated mentally defective or has
been committed to a mental institution;

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

I really wish you'd stop giving advice without looking up the facts - and not even reading the links that you do provide.

 

[CavemanLawyer]

Sorry, but the source is pretty clear. Let me repeat it for you:

I had no problems reading it the first time but re-posting "sources" that you find on google is never going to prove that you are right, and besides I never suggested you were wrong. Once again, all of these "sources" correctly state what a person can and can't do without specifying the statute that makes it that way or distinguishing between whether it is a federal law or a state one. I clarified that it was a federal statute and cited the two Texas statutes that govern this issue and that is all.

Now you keep rubbing people's faces in the Federal statute on this issue, and I agree it controls. That is precisely what I stated in my post that you seem to disagree with. It seems to me that you are really more concerned with proving that you are "not wrong" than in proving what's right.

I'm not going to argue with you. All of Texas' current statutes can be found here, and it has a keyword search function. Texas Constitution and Statutes - Home. Maybe you can find the Texas statute that I overlooked.

As for CHLs yes there are licensing requirements/restrictions regarding mental health issues and yes they are clearly governed by state law since a CHL is a state issued license. But you and I both know that that has nothing to do with the original poster's question.

 

[mistoffolees]

I had no problems reading it the first time but re-posting "sources" that you find on google is never going to prove that you are right, and besides I never suggested you were wrong. Once again, all of these "sources" correctly state what a person can and can't do without specifying the statute that makes it that way or distinguishing between whether it is a federal law or a state one. I clarified that it was a federal statute and cited the two Texas statutes that govern this issue and that is all.

Now you keep rubbing people's faces in the Federal statute on this issue, and I agree it controls. That is precisely what I stated in my post that you seem to disagree with. It seems to me that you are really more concerned with proving that you are "not wrong" than in proving what's right.

I'm not going to argue with you. All of Texas' current statutes can be found here, and it has a keyword search function. Texas Constitution and Statutes - Home. Maybe you can find the Texas statute that I overlooked.

As for CHLs yes there are licensing requirements/restrictions regarding mental health issues and yes they are clearly governed by state law since a CHL is a state issued license. But you and I both know that that has nothing to do with the original poster's question.

And, yet, I've provided substantial evidence that says it's illegal. Heck, there's even a copy of USC 922 above which shows that it's illegal. You've provided nothing but "you're wrong".

Go ahead and review the USC 922 form above and tell me why it's wrong when it says that a person who has been institutionalized for mental illness can't get a gun.

 

[CavemanLawyer]

And, yet, I've provided substantial evidence that says it's illegal. Heck, there's even a copy of USC 922 above which shows that it's illegal. You've provided nothing but "you're wrong".

Go ahead and review the USC 922 form above and tell me why it's wrong when it says that a person who has been institutionalized for mental illness can't get a gun.

USC stands for United States Code and section 922 is a federal statute. I agree it applies in Texas just like in any other State. You either are avoiding the issue or do not understand it. Either way we agree on the law that DOES apply.

 

[mistoffolees]

USC stands for United States Code and section 922 is a federal statute. I agree it applies in Texas just like in any other State. You either are avoiding the issue or do not understand it. Either way we agree on the law that DOES apply.

And the law that clearly applies says that it's illegal for OP to own a gun.

Plus, there is evidence from others that says that TX also has a statute forbidding him from owning a gun.

It is clear that HE CAN NOT OWN A GUN.

So why are you still defending your position that is clearly wrong?

 

[Free_Advice]

And the law that clearly applies says that it's illegal for OP to own a gun.

Plus, there is evidence from others that says that TX also has a statute forbidding him from owning a gun.

It is clear that HE CAN NOT OWN A GUN.

So why are you still defending your position that is clearly wrong?

I think you are confused ... any visit or stay are a mental institution is not being committed.. this means you have been found to have a mental disorder that is a danger to yourself or the community. At 11 yrs old, the OP just went in for an evaluation ~ that's how I read it.

He can answer NO on the atf form, no one will question it...and its a correct answer IMO