Students' legal rights when school fails to teach adequately or meet own claims

[swagmonkey]

In Massachusetts:

This post is exploring options for my girlfriend, who, for anonymity reasons, we'll call Kate. Basics are contained in this paragraph, and the rest is for additional/detailed information. The basic question is, if the school fails to provide what recruiters told her, what are her rights? If she decides to drop out and go elsewhere, will the law support her in getting some or all of her money back? What laws are relevant when a school misrepresents its program to potential students?




Details follow:

Kate started massage school about a month ago, at a school that misrepresented many things before she began. She signed up for a 14-month program, which will cost around $14K. She was told she'd be in school from 3:30-9:30 PM, Monday through Thursday, or 24 hours a week. When she actually started, the provided schedule listed her classes only from 5:30-9:30 PM. In actuality, she's usually home at around 9 PM, which means she's getting out of class about 8:30 PM on a regular basis. So, to start with, she's getting about 12 hours of class time a week, when she signed up expecting twice that (for the same price).

Aside from that, she regularly gets 10 minute breaks for every 20-30 minutes of class. Many/most of the students are bored, and grow to take the place less seriously the longer they are there. Some students like to tell long stories, unrelated or barely/tangentially related to the topic at hand, and the teacher just lets them go on and on without returning class to the topic at hand. She has a legitimate massage textbook, but says a great deal of the teaching in class is the teacher reading to them directly out of the textbook. He uses a great many technical and anatomical words, without ever explaining them, so consequently Kate and many of his other students get lost and have little idea of what he's saying. These anatomical terms are usually in place of, rather than in addition to, pointing something out on a visual reference, such as a picture or model of the human body. Kate's NEXT class is anatomy, but she's being expected to know it already. For the record, this is not a program where Kate can choose which classes she takes, or even in which order. That is simply the order that the program goes, and there are no prerequisites of any kind.

There are large portions of her textbook that the instructor skips over entirely. In one of her two classes, Kate says, the teacher essentially skips over the entire hands-on section of each textbook chapter, because he is NOT a massage therapist. Yet, these sections are still things she's responsible for on the quizzes, which come once a week. If the teacher didn't have enough time in class to cover everything, it might be reasonable to leave some things for students to pick up from the textbook. However, given that there's over an hour every single day of class time that the teacher simply doesn't use, telling the students instead to go home early, it's simply inexcusable that he's not getting to all the material students are expected to know on the quizzes.

She's getting Cs on many of her quizzes, which is not so bad when you consider that the highest score in the class on most of them is a B+ -- and that B+ is from a student who heavily annotates her textbook, spends a great deal of time on her own studying, is equally frustrated with the course/teacher, and has learned far more from the textbook than from the class or teacher.

Many of Kate's fellow students are frustrated. Some talk of creating a study group, where they will try to teach each other the material that does not get taught in class. While this is admirable, none of them know much about the topic except what they can read from the textbook, and they should not be paying a school for the right to teach themselves. Many students are also considering dropping out, and some already have. However, to the best of my and Kate's knowledge, the school offers NO refund to students who drop out. If she drops out 1 month into a 14-month program, she's still expected to pay the full 14-month price.

It seems to me that this school is taking advantage of gullible students, who believe what the school tells them about their potential education, and then have no recourse once they sign up, start, and realize that's not what they're getting at all. If Kate stays in this program, she may be able to pass a licensing exam at the end through a tremendous amount of hard work and essentially teaching herself the material because the teachers fail to do so. If Kate leaves the program, there are other reputable programs in the area, but it seems the $14K for this school is just gone, and she can barely afford the one school (it already means long-term debt), let alone two.

Kate will almost certainly drop out if she can reasonably expect to get her money back. The powerlessness associated with a sunk cost might compel her to stay if she can't take that money anywhere else. Kate feels powerless now, and is considering dropping out anyway, which is part of the reason I'm seeking legal advice here. If I think the money can be regained, I will advise her to seek a better education elsewhere, and do stronger research on the school beforehand this time. If I think there's nothing else that can be done about the money, I think I'd be forced to advise her towards trying to stick it out as long as possible. However, I really don't think that option is fair to her.




What are Kate's options, legally? If she drops out, and the school refuses to return any of her money, can she seek legal recourse? Can she make a stronger case for refund from the school by taking it through the legal system? If so, what are the relevant laws, on which she could base a claim, and how likely is it that a court might take her side?

 

[Antigone*]

If you want help, you are going to have to cut this down by 2/3. We are paid by the hour and this is way too long.

 

[swagmonkey]

If you read even the very beginning, Antigone, you would notice that I put the question and most essential information in the first, small paragraph. The rest provides additional detail which I believe is helpful, but not completely essential to the original question.

Can you read the short, first paragraph and provide advice? Thanks!

 

[Silverplum]

I agree with Mrs. Tiggins (as always), but the original is quotacious.

In Massachusetts:

This post is exploring options for my girlfriend, who, for anonymity reasons, we'll call Kate. Basics are contained in this paragraph, and the rest is for additional/detailed information. The basic question is, if the school fails to provide what recruiters told her, what are her rights? If she decides to drop out and go elsewhere, will the law support her in getting some or all of her money back? What laws are relevant when a school misrepresents its program to potential students?

Details follow:

Kate started massage school about a month ago, at a school that misrepresented many things before she began. She signed up for a 14-month program, which will cost around $14K. She was told she'd be in school from 3:30-9:30 PM, Monday through Thursday, or 24 hours a week. When she actually started, the provided schedule listed her classes only from 5:30-9:30 PM. In actuality, she's usually home at around 9 PM, which means she's getting out of class about 8:30 PM on a regular basis. So, to start with, she's getting about 12 hours of class time a week, when she signed up expecting twice that (for the same price).

Aside from that, she regularly gets 10 minute breaks for every 20-30 minutes of class. Many/most of the students are bored, and grow to take the place less seriously the longer they are there. Some students like to tell long stories, unrelated or barely/tangentially related to the topic at hand, and the teacher just lets them go on and on without returning class to the topic at hand. She has a legitimate massage textbook, but says a great deal of the teaching in class is the teacher reading to them directly out of the textbook. He uses a great many technical and anatomical words, without ever explaining them, so consequently Kate and many of his other students get lost and have little idea of what he's saying. These anatomical terms are usually in place of, rather than in addition to, pointing something out on a visual reference, such as a picture or model of the human body. Kate's NEXT class is anatomy, but she's being expected to know it already. For the record, this is not a program where Kate can choose which classes she takes, or even in which order. That is simply the order that the program goes, and there are no prerequisites of any kind.

There are large portions of her textbook that the instructor skips over entirely. In one of her two classes, Kate says, the teacher essentially skips over the entire hands-on section of each textbook chapter, because he is NOT a massage therapist. Yet, these sections are still things she's responsible for on the quizzes, which come once a week. If the teacher didn't have enough time in class to cover everything, it might be reasonable to leave some things for students to pick up from the textbook. However, given that there's over an hour every single day of class time that the teacher simply doesn't use, telling the students instead to go home early, it's simply inexcusable that he's not getting to all the material students are expected to know on the quizzes.

She's getting Cs on many of her quizzes, which is not so bad when you consider that the highest score in the class on most of them is a B+ -- and that B+ is from a student who heavily annotates her textbook, spends a great deal of time on her own studying, is equally frustrated with the course/teacher, and has learned far more from the textbook than from the class or teacher.

Many of Kate's fellow students are frustrated. Some talk of creating a study group, where they will try to teach each other the material that does not get taught in class. While this is admirable, none of them know much about the topic except what they can read from the textbook, and they should not be paying a school for the right to teach themselves. Many students are also considering dropping out, and some already have. However, to the best of my and Kate's knowledge, the school offers NO refund to students who drop out. If she drops out 1 month into a 14-month program, she's still expected to pay the full 14-month price.

It seems to me that this school is taking advantage of gullible students, who believe what the school tells them about their potential education, and then have no recourse once they sign up, start, and realize that's not what they're getting at all. If Kate stays in this program, she may be able to pass a licensing exam at the end through a tremendous amount of hard work and essentially teaching herself the material because the teachers fail to do so. If Kate leaves the program, there are other reputable programs in the area, but it seems the $14K for this school is just gone, and she can barely afford the one school (it already means long-term debt), let alone two.

Kate will almost certainly drop out if she can reasonably expect to get her money back. The powerlessness associated with a sunk cost might compel her to stay if she can't take that money anywhere else. Kate feels powerless now, and is considering dropping out anyway, which is part of the reason I'm seeking legal advice here. If I think the money can be regained, I will advise her to seek a better education elsewhere, and do stronger research on the school beforehand this time. If I think there's nothing else that can be done about the money, I think I'd be forced to advise her towards trying to stick it out as long as possible. However, I really don't think that option is fair to her.




What are Kate's options, legally? If she drops out, and the school refuses to return any of her money, can she seek legal recourse? Can she make a stronger case for refund from the school by taking it through the legal system? If so, what are the relevant laws, on which she could base a claim, and how likely is it that a court might take her side?

 

[Antigone*]

If you read even the very beginning, Antigone, you would notice that I put the question and most essential information in the first, small paragraph. The rest provides additional detail which I believe is helpful, but not completely essential to the original question.

Can you read the short, first paragraph and provide advice? Thanks!

Ok, then. My answer to your question in your first post is Nope, absodanglutely not.

I'm wondering what research Katie did, prior to signing up for this school.

 

[Silverplum]

Ok, then. My answe to your question in your first post is Nope, absodanglutely not.

I'm wondering what research Katie did, prior to signing up for this school.

Look up "due diligence."

As in, "Kate is required to perform her own due diligence before spending her money and time."

 

[swagmonkey]

Ok, then. My answe to your question in your first post is Nope, absodanglutely not.

I'm wondering what research Katie did, prior to signing up for this school.

I think the unfortunate answer is that Kate didn't spend enough time researching the school, and instead believed what she was told at the school. However, we are not just talking about a lower quality of teaching than she expected. She is actually in class LESS THAN HALF the time she was promised. Aren't there laws about this sort of deception?

I mean, when a teacher was boring at my school, I didn't expect to be able to get my money back. But, when class isn't even being conducted for a large proportion of the hours that were promised, I think there is a much larger issue here that ought to be legally protected.

 

[Antigone*]

Look up "due diligence."

As in, "Kate is required to perform her own due diligence before spending her money and time."

You, my darling, must have done your research Too bad Kate was not that smart.

 

[CSO286]

I think the unfortunate answer is that Kate didn't spend enough time researching the school, and instead believed what she was told at the school. However, we are not just talking about a lower quality of teaching than she expected. She is actually in class LESS THAN HALF the time she was promised. Aren't there laws about this sort of deception?

I mean, when a teacher was boring at my school, I didn't expect to be able to get my money back. But, when class isn't even being conducted for a large proportion of the hours that were promised, I think there is a much larger issue here that ought to be legally protected.

No, she should have spoken to former students and "done her homework" on the program.

Many of my college classes let out early, depending on class participation.

 

[swagmonkey]

CSO, I've had classes let out a few minutes early, or even 20-30 minutes once in a blue moon. Have you ever had a class that started 2 hours later than you were told, and ended an hour early, EVERY SINGLE DAY? When your class did let you out early, was it because they had finished teaching what you were supposed to learn, or did they just feel like it even though the material had not been covered? I think it's a pretty minimal standard for a school that if they say you'll be taking classes for X hours, that the classes actually meet for at LEAST, let's say, 80-90% of that time.

Kate was told she would be attending classes from 3:30-9:30 PM, 4 days a week, and she's getting half of that. What I need to find out, I think, is whether she has any of the claims in writing. It's clear that the school is not living up to what it said, but whether she can prove that they said it makes a big difference.

 

[Humusluvr]

CSO, I've had classes let out a few minutes early, or even 20-30 minutes once in a blue moon. Have you ever had a class that started 2 hours later than you were told, and ended an hour early, EVERY SINGLE DAY? When your class did let you out early, was it because they had finished teaching what you were supposed to learn, or did they just feel like it even though the material had not been covered? I think it's a pretty minimal standard for a school that if they say you'll be taking classes for X hours, that the classes actually meet for at LEAST, let's say, 80-90% of that time.

Kate was told she would be attending classes from 3:30-9:30 PM, 4 days a week, and she's getting half of that. What I need to find out, I think, is whether she has any of the claims in writing. It's clear that the school is not living up to what it said, but whether she can prove that they said it makes a big difference.

What did the dean or director of the program tell her when she asked? She is certainly free to not sign up the next semester, if she does not feel she is getting her money's worth. And assuming that Kate is a go-getter, why doesn't she take the initiative to start her learning at 3:30, and read/study/form a study group? Or offer massages somewhere?

 

[Just Blue]

CSO, I've had classes let out a few minutes early, or even 20-30 minutes once in a blue moon. Have you ever had a class that started 2 hours later than you were told, and ended an hour early, EVERY SINGLE DAY? When your class did let you out early, was it because they had finished teaching what you were supposed to learn, or did they just feel like it even though the material had not been covered? I think it's a pretty minimal standard for a school that if they say you'll be taking classes for X hours, that the classes actually meet for at LEAST, let's say, 80-90% of that time.

Kate was told she would be attending classes from 3:30-9:30 PM, 4 days a week, and she's getting half of that. What I need to find out, I think, is whether she has any of the claims in writing. It's clear that the school is not living up to what it said, but whether she can prove that they said it makes a big difference.

Is there a mental disability that prevents Kate from asking her own legal questions?

 

[Hot Topic]

You're either "Kate" or you're someone who she lets take care of her problems. If she expects someone else to do her fighting for her, the fight isn't worth it. Grow up, Kate, on way or the other.

 

[stealth2]

She's getting Cs on many of her quizzes, which is not so bad when you consider that the highest score in the class on most of them is a B+ -- and that B+ is from a student who heavily annotates her textbook, spends a great deal of time on her own studying, is equally frustrated with the course/teacher, and has learned far more from the textbook than from the class or teacher.

So, there is at least one student who understands the basics of furthering one's education. That's encouraging. This isn't HS anymore - the teacher/professor isn't required to spoon-feed information to his students. It's sort of expected that the students will take some initiative. You know... silly stuff like reading the text, learning the terminology, etc. Heck - my kid has HS teachers who expect the kids to do that work themselves. Maybe Kate needs to grow up a little and understand that she has to take charge of her own education. Given that she's apparently not interested in taking the initiative to ask her own questions... I'm not encouraged.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Tell Kate high school is over. This is the real world. She needs to spend 2 hours a day, from 3 -5 maybe, studying the material for class, so she gets A's. Then, perish the thought, she can ask informed questions and provoke discussion. I bet that increases class time.