Cops entering a house

[sjjs]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I was at a friend's house, there was a few of us there drinking. There was a knock at the door, one of the guys who lived there went to the door - cops at the door. They did the whole 'how you doin? what's goin on today' thing, then they asked if they could come in. Friend says no. Then they demanded to come in. Then they shoved their way in.
One cop said to my friend something like "refusing gives us probable cause to suspect there's something going on"
....ummmmm.....HUH? They sounded like the 'make up the law as we go police'.

I questioned a cop, he said to me "we knew there were underagers drinking in here" - yeah, how? We were all in the back, most of us had been there a long time, no-one had been out the front, you couldn't see us from the street - you couldn't see us from the door either, we live surrounded by neighbors who if there's a party going on we go and join, we don't call the cops on each other so I know no-body called.
Cop didn't tell me how they knew this.

A different guy got told, we busted a bunch of parties here before (yeah...when, in the 80s, cos the guys who live there now haven't been busted..)

Weird thing was two guys arrived pretty much just before the cops knocked on the door (they had driven in around the back and come in the back - cops couldn't have seen them carry anything in). And the cops were real interested in one of these guys and kept asking him if his name was ***** - which it isn't. And checking out his ID and stuff. It was kind of like THAT was
the reason they came knocking...
And then it was like asking us for IDs about the alcohol was an afterthought.

It was all really weird. And felt really aggressive and forceful...

So anyway, got an MIP out of it. Can I fight that they had no right to enter the house?
And when I go to court - can the cops say anything they like about reasons to enter the house? Did they have to explain to the house occupants the real reasons for entering the house at the time?

Because "refusing gives us probable cause to suspect there's something going on" sounds like crap.

Sorry for the length.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[tranquility]

To enter a house, the police need a warrant or probable cause combined with exigent circumstances. It is possible, depending on the report which brought them there, the police can make a case for exigent circumstances. It's not that easy and I would certainly challenge based on what you said.

The problem will be the cost. You don't get to just stand up and say illegal search. You have to go through a bunch of steps. Get an attorney.

 

[sjjs]

Thanks for responding.

This is just my guess, but I think there must have been a warrant in the name of the person they kept asking our friend about. But that wouldn't give them the right to go in a house would it?

 

[sjjs]

Oh, and these 'exigent circumstances' - they don't have to explain these at the time?

 

[tranquility]

This is just my guess, but I think there must have been a warrant in the name of the person they kept asking our friend about. But that wouldn't give them the right to go in a house would it?

It does if they have...I'll say probable cause to believe he's there, but it's even less. More like a reasonable belief.

Oh, and these 'exigent circumstances' - they don't have to explain these at the time?

Nope.

 

[!CuriousGeorge!]

Oh, and these 'exigent circumstances' - they don't have to explain these at the time?

Correct, explanation is not needed & why should they have to explain at that time?

Never even open the door, let them pound away ... problem solved

 

[sjjs]

It does if they have...I'll say probable cause to believe he's there, but it's even less. More like a reasonable belief.

Well *&%$.

So it was obvious they thought our friend was someone else. And when he and the other guy came driving in the back - there is only one house that it goes to.

So if he looks like this guy (and when they were right in his face they still seemed to think he was this guy), and they have a warrant, and they know that person is in that house, or at least on that property, they can come and push their way in?

 

[sjjs]

& why should they have to explain at that time?

Ya know, would've been nice...

Never even open the door, let them pound away ... problem solved

We didn't know it was them did we!

....we were expecting some pizza too...last time I order pizza...

 

[CdwJava]

I was at a friend's house, there was a few of us there drinking. There was a knock at the door, one of the guys who lived there went to the door - cops at the door. They did the whole 'how you doin? what's goin on today' thing, then they asked if they could come in. Friend says no. Then they demanded to come in. Then they shoved their way in.
One cop said to my friend something like "refusing gives us probable cause to suspect there's something going on"

If the officer actually said that your friend's refusal gave them probable cause, he needs to go back to the Academy.

I would hope that is not what he said, but I have heard dumber things attributed to officers on this and other forums.

Cop didn't tell me how they knew this.

They do not have to tell you how they knew there were underage drinkers there. Clearly they knew.

However, KNOWING does not imply that they had sufficient probable cause or an articulated exigency to support entry. There are a number of ways to justify entry, but entry is not always going to be possible. However ... cars parked out front might have citeable violations, and eventually these minors are going to leave. So, the officers could entertain themselves with parking cites if possible, or, just hang out until people start to leave.

Or, they just clear and roll through periodically until they get a noise complaint or something more to act on.

And checking out his ID and stuff. It was kind of like THAT was
the reason they came knocking...

Maybe it was.

So anyway, got an MIP out of it. Can I fight that they had no right to enter the house?

What code section were you cited for? Depending on the code section, you might have to fight it with an attorney you pay for out of your pocket. Your fine might be small, and the attorney might cost you $1,500 to $2,500 or so. You will have to weigh your options carefully or real quickly learn how to assemble and submit legal motions.

And when I go to court - can the cops say anything they like about reasons to enter the house? Did they have to explain to the house occupants the real reasons for entering the house at the time?

They will likely have to articulate to the court their reason for making entry, but they do not have to tell anyone else at the scene why they are there.

Because "refusing gives us probable cause to suspect there's something going on" sounds like crap.

If they hang their hats on that, then the guys are idiots and someone should get reamed over that.

 

[sjjs]

CdwJava, thanks for the reply, Did you read further through the posts and my theory about a possible warrant in some guy's name who apparently looks like my friend? Does that change anything about their right to enter?

I'll get back to you on the code section.

And yeah, that's what the cop said to my friend....who knows if he believed it or just said it...

 

[CdwJava]

CdwJava, thanks for the reply, Did you read further through the posts and my theory about a possible warrant in some guy's name who apparently looks like my friend? Does that change anything about their right to enter?

If a resident had an arrest warrant, and they had reason to believe he was there, then they can force entry for that purpose. However, it doesn't sound like that was the case based upon your initial post.

If that was the case, then they can make an easy case for entry and that would mean that whatever they observed where they had a right to be can be acted upon.

I'll get back to you on the code section.

Thanks.

And yeah, that's what the cop said to my friend....who knows if he believed it or just said it...

That was darn stupid.

I have heard cops say something like, "If you have nothing to hide, why not give us consent?" But, I have never witnessed anyone actually state that NOT giving permission is sufficient probable cause to make entry. That is just senseless. I assume it has happened because I have read about it a number of time, just that I have never worked around anyone so stupid as to actually stand on it.

Though I did once have an Assistant DA tell me that I could detain victims and witnesses for as long as necessary so that I could get a statement from them. I disagreed. He said they wouldn't file our cases if we didn't. I asked for his opinion in writing. He wouldn't. My boss called his boss. This request disappeared.

Point being that sometimes even attorneys can hold misguided and incorrect opinions.

 

[sjjs]

If a resident had an arrest warrant, and they had reason to believe he was there, then they can force entry for that purpose. However, it doesn't sound like that was the case based upon your initial post.

A "resident" like someone who actually lives in the house? Not someone who pulls up to visit?

That was darn stupid.

I have heard cops say something like, "If you have nothing to hide, why not give us consent?" But, I have never witnessed anyone actually state that NOT giving permission is sufficient probable cause to make entry. That is just senseless. I assume it has happened because I have read about it a number of time, just that I have never worked around anyone so stupid as to actually stand on it.

haha, awesome. I thought it sounded wrong... It sounded like something that was just waiting for some kind of "In Soviet Russia..." joke.

So the code is b&p 25662 - I think...and then it looks like an A...I think

Which confuses me now - I looked that up to see if it was anything close or if I was reading wrong and that says stuff about public places?
I don't get it? It seems like B makes more sense...sort of...at a stretch.

Maybe they weren't real cops...

And I have actually had that b&p25662A before so this would be second...so that's bad...

 

[sjjs]

...it could be a B...

But do you have to go to court over that or do they just take your alcohol?

 

[!CuriousGeorge!]

Ya know, would've been nice...

We didn't know it was them did we!

....we were expecting some pizza too...last time I order pizza...

Nice? Sure..would not have mattered in the ling run.

And you cannot tell the difference from a cop to a pizza guy? And you could have closed the door too once you discovered they were cops. You don't have to be uncivil, just close the door.

 

[sjjs]

Nice? Sure..would not have mattered in the ling run.

True. But at least we wouldn't be sitting around now going 'wtf was that?'.

And you cannot tell the difference from a cop to a pizza guy?

Not based on a knock....can you?

And you could have closed the door too once you discovered they were cops. You don't have to be uncivil, just close the door.

I wasn't the one actually at the door. I was in the back. Sipping a nice cool beverage...
And I think they were pretty much sold on storming the house anyway...