50yo,TOLD to leave,built family biz&prim.caregiver BUTwent to schl& relied on job@biz

[25years]

50yo,TOLD to leave,built family biz&prim.caregiver BUTwent to schl& relied on job@biz

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Delaware


SUMMARY:
After 25 years of marriage, 50 year old father of elementary school aged boys TOLD TO LEAVE HIS HOME, after he was primary caregiver, home maker and was a major contributor to the business that provides the family's income. He was made to believe that he would have an active role in that business and would return to being primary caregiver after he attended school. Instead, apparently because his schooling did not instantly get him a high paying job - he is TOLD TO LEAVE and accept paltry terms that will force him to live outside his boys schools district.


MY QUESTIONs:
- At my age, with these circumstances - what is a fair settlement?

- Does she have the right to force me from the home just because she pays the mortgage? (foolishly, I let it be in her name, but the title is in both of ours)

- As we have boys and I was their primary care giver prior to law school, is it reasonable that I recover that role?

- Similarly, is it reasonable that I be awarded the family home as I was the primary caregiver? But for the interruption to attend school, I was homemaker and primary care giver; various non-relatives served as the primary caregivers during my time in school.

- Can I reasonably ask for'alimony' EQUAL TO HALF of the NOI of our business? As I REASONABLY RELIED on our discussions that I would be continuing to work with our firm and that I would pursue my career interest as circumstances permitted. Her rapid ‘change of heart’ took place only very recently, unexpectedly and then she only gave cursory effort to reconciliation efforts. 50/50 split of our business income will still leave her in a position to buy a house our the school district. She has forced me out of most roles at our business due to her having 'signature' power and by using other bullying tactics. I do think it fair that as I make progress towards reestablishing my career that my earnings are subtracted from what she (our business) pays to me.


OTHER BACKGROUND:

- She practices divorce law and I know next to nothing of this area of law, the local judges etc.

- I retired from my former career in 2004 - at my wife's invitation and in order to be able to be a proper dad for our 3 boys. (ages 8 to 11 now)

- I worked very actively to grow our law firm. I renamed the firm and marketed it very effectively. I was responsible for creating, purchasing, leasing all of the back office systems and for creating most of the firms operating and accounting procedures. I negotiated the longterm office lease, was inlvolved in all hiring decisions and conducted much of the firms research. I operated with duties similar to that of the managing partner and and I delegated most administrative work to the office manager and others. AS I NEVER EXPECTED TO BE 'CAST OUT', I NEVER PUSHED TO BE FORMALLY BE MADE PART OF THE LLC.

- I performed many if not most of the 'mom' and 'housewife' functions prior to going to school. Once our boys reached grade school age, I began my law school education. This ultimately required the hiring of 'aupaires' to cover the gaps of our availability. At the time I quit in 2004, I was the primary income earner, but I quit as we agreed that one of us needed to be more available to our boys. It was my intention after completing law school, to once again become primary caregiver, instead of aupaires and THEN to ease back into a career.

- During our marriage, I earned more and spent far less than her. There are no inheritances now or in the future. We are left with almost no retirement, no savings for education of our children. We have debts that will take several years to pay off - assuming the economy does not get worse, that we do not spend money on litigating and that my soon to be ex does not spend every 'pay check' as she has for the last 25 years.

- I have several other work opportunities that pay little initially, but they don't allow me to stay close to home. However, they do not pay enough for me to buy a new home in the same school district. Rents are about the same (high).


[HR][/HR]

I feel like a discarded housewife,
[HR][/HR]

note a few minor details were 'edited' in order to not make a spectacle of what should be a private matter

 

[ecmst12]

Ok I understand you just finished law school and you can't help it, but that is WAY too long.

Can you afford the house on your own?

You really need to get yourself a lawyer. You shouldn't need to be told that.

 

[LdiJ]

You should not be asking to keep the marital home unless you can currently afford the mortgage without any assistance from her. It is not logical for someone to keep the marital home who does not have the means to pay for it.

No judge is going to give you 1/2 of any firm's net operating income. You might get 1/2 of the current equity in the firm, but you won't get 1/2 of its NOI...nor should you. You might get some short term alimony, or you might not.

You have a law degree. You need to pass the bar and get a job ASAP. That law degree qualifies you to get a decent job once you have passed the bar. You will not have the luxury of getting to stay home with the children any longer.

What's fair is that you each get 1/2 of the marital assets, and you are each responsible for 1/2 of the marital debts.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Delaware


SUMMARY: A Instead, apparently because his schooling did not get him a high paying job - he has been deemed unworthy and TOLD TO LEAVE and accept paltry terms that will force him to live outside his boys schools district.

Did you leave the marital home? If so, WHY?
And if you went into law to make a fortune, you went into law for the wrong reasons. Those high paying jobs don't exist much. YOu can always go into practice for yourself however.
MY QUESTIONs:

- at my age, with these circumstances - what is a fair settlement? ​

You are entitled to half the marital assets and half the marital debt.

- does she have the right to force me from the home just because she has a the income to pay mortgage (foolishly I let it be in her name, the title is in both of our names)

YOu are half owner. Can she afford to buy out your share of the equity? Can you afford to refinance the mortgage in your name?

- as we have boys and I was their primary care giver prior to law school, is it reasonable that I recover that role? (I just graduated but have the Bar to study for)

Doesn't matter what gender the children are.

- she practices divorce law and I know next to nothing of this area of law, the local judges etc
- I committed no bad acts, she gave up after 5 'therapy sessions', she has a history of drinking, frequently to the point of not remembering, spends no real quality time with our boys other than events that allow her to socialize. She is charismatic, I am not. I am no angel, but have been devoted to both her, our business and our children. I had been very optimistic about our new life once I finished school. The intense nature of law school changed me in many positive ways. I paid a heavy, heavy price.

Drinking is legal and not really going to be a big deal.
What heavy heavy price did you pay?

* That I get 'alimony' EQUAL TO HALF of the NOI of our business, and that dollar issues related to our boys are subtracted preNOI. This should still leave her in a position to buy a house in the school district and encourage her to run our business. She has forced me out of most roles, due to her having 'signature' power and by using other bully style tactics.

pre NOI? Alimony is not going to be based on business income but her personal income.

* I think it entirely fair that as I make progress towards reestablishing my career that funds that I earn are subtracted from what she (our business) pays to me.

Not your business if it is an LLC.

* Can I expect to be awarded the family home as I was the primary caregiver but for the interruption of law school and during that interruption, aupaires served the primary caregivers. Further, I invested far more time doing renovations that helped preserve our home’s value and did the things that give it the welcoming atmosphere that our boys have come to enjoy. I make a point of teaching the boys by way of doing maintenance projects (big and small) around the home with them.

Okay.

* In particular as SHE IS DEMANDING that I LEAVE and she is the one that is not interested in any real effort of reconciliation

She can demand but only the court can force you to leave.

* That I REASONABLY RELIED on our discussions that I would be continuing to work with our firm and that I would pursue my career interest as circumstances permitted. Her rapid ‘change of heart’ took place only very recently, unexpectedly and then she only gave cursory effort to reconciliation effort.

Well you don't get to reasonably rely and use that.

In addition to the business ownership issue, there is also the issue that we borrowed over $50,000 from my family with the explicit understanding that we pay it back as quick as possible, yet almost none is paid back and in those years my wife bought over $50,000 of luxury items. (Yes, I objected to that).

And? That is marital debt.

BACKGROUND:
My wife told to leave my house and children after 25 years of marriage:

- I just finished 4 years of law school and had intended to work with her in our law practice and then ease into my own practice, in areas that relate to my 20 year career in government contracting, lease administration and construction management.

And? Start your own practice once you pass the bar.

- I quit that field in 2004 - at my wife's invitation and in order to be able to be a proper dad for our 3 boys. (ages 8 to 11 now)
- I worked very actively with my wife's business. The firm tripled its NOI in the time I was there. I renamed the "doing business as" name and marketed the new firm, was responsible for all of the back office systems and procedures and building and maintenance of a sophisticated server, sql data base and accounting system that allows the firm to handle 500 cases a year. I made key hiring & firing decisions, including going against the "boss's" wish on very productive new lawyer.

You don't understand ethics, do you? Because you are NOT allowed to be a partner in a law firm if you are not a lawyer. Hence, you can't claim credit as anything. You may have been an employee but that means nothing.

- I found negotiated and leased space, signed for phone lines and made most purchases both large and small. I automated most payments via company credit cards, some that I procured and performed the most accounting functions, including overseeing tax prep and selection and changes of CPAs.

- AS I NEVER EXPECTED TO BE 'CAST OUT', I NEVER PUSHED TO BE FORMALLY BE MADE PART OF THE LLC.

Ethics. Non-attorneys cannot be partners (or part of an LLC) with lawyers for the purpose of a lawfirm.

- I performed all of the 'mom' and 'housewife' functions prior to going to school. Once our boys reached grade school age, I began my law school education. This ultimately required the hiring of 'aupaires' to cover the gaps of our availability, especially after school. At the time I quit in 2004, I was the primary income earner, but I quit as we agreed that one of us needed to be more available to our boy. It was my intention after completing law school, to once again become primary caregiver, instead of the aupaires and then to ease back into a career.

Mom and housewife? Lets be biased shall we?

- In the time I was absent from my former career, the industry I came from has been hit very hard by economic changes and all of the companies I worked for have merged. In addition, as I am 50, and not current with my former profession, I have been largely eclipsed by younger people, who are able to travel and work longer hours.

And? You have a law degree now.

- I have several other work opportunities that pay little initially, but they allow me to stay close to home. However, they do not pay enough for me to buy a new home in the same school district. Rents are about the same.

Or you can build your own practice.

- During our marriage, I earned more and spent far less. There are no inheritances and that should be irrelevant. We are left with almost no retirement, no savings for education of our children. We have debts that will take several years to pay off - assuming the economy does not get worse, that we do not spend money on litigating and that my soon to be ex does not spend every 'pay check' as she has for the last 25 years. The only savings are what I put aside for retirement. Our real estate has no real equity.

YOu get half the debts and half the assets.

[HR][/HR]

I feel like a discarded housewife,
[HR][/HR]

I gained weight, my hair fell out, I developed high blood pressure and I have marginal prospects to earn money compared to a few years ago – therefore I should leave and be happy with a few crumbs she might throw my way - according to her.

I have no interest in torturing the boys with a custody battle.

The boys shouldn't be involved in a custody battle.

. . . Many thanks for ideas and suggestions. I know it 'depends'. I just feel like I am being thrown down the mine shaft and really do not want to litigate or leave my home - in particular as I did nothing wrong, I am not seeking to give up on our marriage and she has the means to leave if she wishes to be rid of me.

The court will determine who keeps the house and who doesn't.

 

[25years]

Ok I understand you just finished law school and you can't help it, but that is WAY too long.

Can you afford the house on your own?

You really need to get yourself a lawyer. You shouldn't need to be told that.

I just shortened it substantially after receiving your comment. I just wanted to get some feedback, and have not had time to sit down and write, and have been reluctant to get a lawyer for many reasons.

I am actually very busy with pro-bono work that I can only gradually extricate myself from, also business issues, job searches, important issues with the boys, health issues and I must figure out if I am best off putting off the Bar in-order to litigate this now. If I do not litigate now, I risk getting run over as I attempt to ignore it in order to get enough time to prep for the Bar.

I can marginally afford the home, which may be an option.

 

[25years]

You should not be asking to keep the marital home unless you can currently afford the mortgage without any assistance from her. It is not logical for someone to keep the marital home who does not have the means to pay for it.

No judge is going to give you 1/2 of any firm's net operating income. You might get 1/2 of the current equity in the firm, but you won't get 1/2 of its NOI...nor should you. You might get some short term alimony, or you might not.

You have a law degree. You need to pass the bar and get a job ASAP. That law degree qualifies you to get a decent job once you have passed the bar. You will not have the luxury of getting to stay home with the children any longer.

What's fair is that you each get 1/2 of the marital assets, and you are each responsible for 1/2 of the marital debts.

My bigger question, can she force me out just by virtue of being on the mortgage, even though the title is in both our names?
Also, initially the only way I afford the mortgage is to be paid for the income stream that I had a big hand in creating, but have been forced out of.
I have enough resources to pay the mortgage long enough to get through the bar and get a job BUT not if I am litigating.

So what I contributed is not relative? Only value of assets and debts? My role in creating an income stream is of almost no future value because I did not get my name on a LLC doc? Most of the my labor in this effort was in the last 6 years and fruits of that labor mostly in the last year.

A marginal business became profitable and then I am cut out with no recourse? If I was not married to the person on the LLC I would understand that I was foolish and had no contract.

 

[25years]

Did you leave the marital home? If so, WHY?
And if you went into law to make a fortune, you went into law for the wrong reasons. Those high paying jobs don't exist much. YOu can always go into practice for yourself however.
MY QUESTIONs:


You are entitled to half the marital assets and half the marital debt.


YOu are half owner. Can she afford to buy out your share of the equity? Can you afford to refinance the mortgage in your name?



Doesn't matter what gender the children are.



Drinking is legal and not really going to be a big deal.
What heavy heavy price did you pay?


pre NOI? Alimony is not going to be based on business income but her personal income.



Not your business if it is an LLC.


Okay.



She can demand but only the court can force you to leave.


Well you don't get to reasonably rely and use that.




And? That is marital debt.



And? Start your own practice once you pass the bar.


You don't understand ethics, do you? Because you are NOT allowed to be a partner in a law firm if you are not a lawyer. Hence, you can't claim credit as anything. You may have been an employee but that means nothing.


Ethics. Non-attorneys cannot be partners (or part of an LLC) with lawyers for the purpose of a lawfirm.




Mom and housewife? Lets be biased shall we?




And? You have a law degree now.


Or you can build your own practice.


YOu get half the debts and half the assets.


The boys shouldn't be involved in a custody battle.

The court will determine who keeps the house and who doesn't.

Got it. Most of it. I clarified after your post that my duties in running the firm were similar to that of managing partner. Not that I practiced law. Many aspects of the business were created and negotiated by me. I signed many contracts. I also understand that I cannot be a partner with a law-firm without being a lawyer. I was and still am a 'partner' (conventional usage) in the endeavor that created the income stream of the business.

I did not study domestic law so that I could maximize coursework in areas related to my career. Ironically, I knew that I had to learn some domestic law to prepare for the bar - and that is what I am now doing.

Oh, no bias intended at all ... I used 'house wife' to refer to what people commonly understand, 'house husband' has not really been accepted in any sense - yes, a double standard ... you ought to try it or asking any dude who has ... kind of like Rodney Dangerfield ... you get no respect for being a "househusband" and you certainly do not get credit for pushing for equal rights ...

Is there no bias in the courts towards women, especially where the man has far higher earning potential and the wife was devoted to making that possible? Sure, being a lawyer will help me, but my efforts until very recently were all oriented towards boosting the career of my wife who has been in practice for many years. All things equal, should I expect to be treated the same as woman would be? I do not know and that gives me a lot of trepidation. I invested a lot in making our home a place I wanted to stay in - and now I am being told to leave. It seems to me that fairness would indicate that the person who wants to leave a marriage should be the one who leaves, assuming no abuse or wrong doing. Anecdotally, it seems that woman end up with the house because they were the homemaker etc and had less ability to get up and move. Perhaps I am missing something.

What are the factors that help a judge determine who should remain in the house? I can afford it, but it will be rough while I am trying to study for the Bar, awaiting the results and trying to find a job locally.


I do appreciate your good feedback, this is my first foray at trying to understand the legal aspects of my predicament.

 

[LdiJ]

If a woman had just finished getting a law degree (or any other professional degree) she would be receiving similar responses. There is no gender bias in that respect. Alimony is calculated in part by imputing an income to the recipient that is equalvalent to what they are capable of earning. You would have a very hard time convincing a judge that you are not capable of making a living wage with your law degree.

In addition, its NOT women who typically keep the house in a divorce. The person who typically keeps the house is the person who is able to pay the mortgage and refinance the mortgage to buy out the other party and get them off the mortgage. It has nothing to do with who was the homemaker. It is completely to do with who can pay for the home.

You are understandably upset about the situation but you do need to be realistic about it. You are going to end up with half of the marital assets and be responsible for half of the marital debts. You are absolutely not going to get half of her firm's net operating income. In the first place, operating income is NOT profit and expenses have to come out of operating income, and in the second place you have a brand new law degree and therefore are capable of making a living wage.

 

[Bali Hai]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Delaware


SUMMARY:
After 25 years of marriage, 50 year old father of elementary school aged boys TOLD TO LEAVE HIS HOME, after he was primary caregiver, home maker and was a major contributor to the business that provides the family's income. He was made to believe that he would have an active role in that business and would return to being primary caregiver after he attended school. Instead, apparently because his schooling did not instantly get him a high paying job - he is TOLD TO LEAVE and accept paltry terms that will force him to live outside his boys schools district.


MY QUESTIONs:
- At my age, with these circumstances - what is a fair settlement?

- Does she have the right to force me from the home just because she pays the mortgage? (foolishly, I let it be in her name, but the title is in both of ours)

- As we have boys and I was their primary care giver prior to law school, is it reasonable that I recover that role?

- Similarly, is it reasonable that I be awarded the family home as I was the primary caregiver? But for the interruption to attend school, I was homemaker and primary care giver; various non-relatives served as the primary caregivers during my time in school.

- Can I reasonably ask for'alimony' EQUAL TO HALF of the NOI of our business? As I REASONABLY RELIED on our discussions that I would be continuing to work with our firm and that I would pursue my career interest as circumstances permitted. Her rapid ‘change of heart’ took place only very recently, unexpectedly and then she only gave cursory effort to reconciliation efforts. 50/50 split of our business income will still leave her in a position to buy a house our the school district. She has forced me out of most roles at our business due to her having 'signature' power and by using other bullying tactics. I do think it fair that as I make progress towards reestablishing my career that my earnings are subtracted from what she (our business) pays to me.


OTHER BACKGROUND:

- She practices divorce law and I know next to nothing of this area of law, the local judges etc.

- I retired from my former career in 2004 - at my wife's invitation and in order to be able to be a proper dad for our 3 boys. (ages 8 to 11 now)

- I worked very actively to grow our law firm. I renamed the firm and marketed it very effectively. I was responsible for creating, purchasing, leasing all of the back office systems and for creating most of the firms operating and accounting procedures. I negotiated the longterm office lease, was inlvolved in all hiring decisions and conducted much of the firms research. I operated with duties similar to that of the managing partner and and I delegated most administrative work to the office manager and others. AS I NEVER EXPECTED TO BE 'CAST OUT', I NEVER PUSHED TO BE FORMALLY BE MADE PART OF THE LLC.

- I performed many if not most of the 'mom' and 'housewife' functions prior to going to school. Once our boys reached grade school age, I began my law school education. This ultimately required the hiring of 'aupaires' to cover the gaps of our availability. At the time I quit in 2004, I was the primary income earner, but I quit as we agreed that one of us needed to be more available to our boys. It was my intention after completing law school, to once again become primary caregiver, instead of aupaires and THEN to ease back into a career.

- During our marriage, I earned more and spent far less than her. There are no inheritances now or in the future. We are left with almost no retirement, no savings for education of our children. We have debts that will take several years to pay off - assuming the economy does not get worse, that we do not spend money on litigating and that my soon to be ex does not spend every 'pay check' as she has for the last 25 years.

- I have several other work opportunities that pay little initially, but they don't allow me to stay close to home. However, they do not pay enough for me to buy a new home in the same school district. Rents are about the same (high).


[HR][/HR]

I feel like a discarded housewife,
[HR][/HR]

note a few minor details were 'edited' in order to not make a spectacle of what should be a private matter

Your marriage is long term, you are entitled to alimony and child support. Rule of thumb for alimony duration is half the length of the marriage or until death of a former spouse. If you want to retain the home for the best interest of the children, the alimony and child support would go a long way to making the mortgage payments.

You have a law degree, but that does not guarantee employment. You sacrificed a substantial portion of your earning capacity through the years for the benefit and enhancement of your stbx's career. It's time she pays you back. Fight for your rights.

 

[LdiJ]

Your marriage is long term, you are entitled to alimony and child support. Rule of thumb for alimony duration is half the length of the marriage or until death of a former spouse. If you want to retain the home for the best interest of the children, the alimony and child support would go a long way to making the mortgage payments.

You have a law degree, but that does not guarantee employment. You sacrificed a substantial portion of your earning capacity through the years for the benefit and enhancement of your stbx's career. It's time she pays you back. Fight for your rights.

Bali...You are not helping him at all.

He was the primary income earner up until 2004. He has earned a law degree since then. There is no guarantee at all that he is going to get alimony, let alone in any significant amount. If he wants to keep the home he has to be able to refinance it into his own name. He cannot do that right now since he has not obtained a job. He is entitled to a share of the equity in her business but that will never translate to half of the net operating income. He is iffy on the "primary caretaker" aspect regarding the children as he admits that why he was in law school he was not the primary caretaker, so its not guaranteed that he will get primary custody or child support.

The only things that are close to being guaranteed to him right now is that he is going to get half of the marital assets and be responsible for half of the marital debts. The rest is still very much in the air.

 

[Bali Hai]

Bali...You are not helping him at all.

He was the primary income earner up until 2004. He has earned a law degree since then. There is no guarantee at all that he is going to get alimony, let alone in any significant amount. If he wants to keep the home he has to be able to refinance it into his own name. He cannot do that right now since he has not obtained a job. He is entitled to a share of the equity in her business but that will never translate to half of the net operating income. He is iffy on the "primary caretaker" aspect regarding the children as he admits that why he was in law school he was not the primary caretaker, so its not guaranteed that he will get primary custody or child support.

The only things that are close to being guaranteed to him right now is that he is going to get half of the marital assets and be responsible for half of the marital debts. The rest is still very much in the air.

And your one-way advice is helping? In whose favor?

Let's let OP determine what advice may or may not set the course for him to proceed.

There is no guarantee when a wife of a 25 year marriage demands the moon either, but she usually gets it.

Wifey has a protracted income potential that far out weighs OP's law degree, and based on wifey's attitude, if I were OP, I would be getting a good attorney and if wifey isn't willing to negotiate, let a judge decide.

Since wifey is a family law attorney and "tells" OP he "must" leave the home, it is imperative that OP gets a good lawyer and ask the judge that wifey pay some or all of the attorney fees.

 

[Ohiogal]

And your one-way advice is helping? In whose favor?

Let's let OP determine what advice may or may not set the course for him to proceed.

There is no guarantee when a wife of a 25 year marriage demands the moon either, but she usually gets it.

Wifey has a protracted income potential that far out weighs OP's law degree, and based on wifey's attitude, if I were OP, I would be getting a good attorney and if wifey isn't willing to negotiate, let a judge decide.

Since wifey is a family law attorney and "tells" OP he "must" leave the home, it is imperative that OP gets a good lawyer and ask the judge that wifey pay some or all of the attorney fees.

Actually both have a similar income potential because they both have law degrees. And OP should get an attorney if he knows nothing about domestic relations. He cannot LEGALLY be a partner in the law firm -- it is an ethical violation and the fact that he keeps saying that he is a MANAGING partner in the conventional sense is troubling because he and his wife could both face ethics sanctions for being partners in a law firm when he is NOT an attorney. He needs to learn the law before he takes the bar. If he goes into court stating how he was a partner of any type in the LLC (except for paperwork) the judge will HAVE to report the two of them to the bar association for an investigation. Hence causing himself MORE problems.

 

[Bali Hai]

Actually both have a similar income potential because they both have law degrees. And OP should get an attorney if he knows nothing about domestic relations. He cannot LEGALLY be a partner in the law firm -- it is an ethical violation and the fact that he keeps saying that he is a MANAGING partner in the conventional sense is troubling because he and his wife could both face ethics sanctions for being partners in a law firm when he is NOT an attorney. He needs to learn the law before he takes the bar. If he goes into court stating how he was a partner of any type in the LLC (except for paperwork) the judge will HAVE to report the two of them to the bar association for an investigation. Hence causing himself MORE problems.

Since wifey could be in just as much trouble for ethics violations and sanctions, that just may induce her to negotiate a fair settlement with OP. Especially since OP is in poor health

 

[LdiJ]

Since wifey could be in just as much trouble for ethics violations and sanctions, that just may induce her to negotiate a fair settlement with OP. Especially since OP is in poor health

Where did you see an indication that OP was in poor health?

 

[not2cleverRed]

(1) Never voluntarily leave if you don't want to. Can you be forced out? Sure. But that takes time and effort. Maybe she'll move out first. Doesn't mean you'll get the house if everything proceeds to a divorce, but it leaves you in a better position - especially if you are more concerned about custody than the actual house. (Doesn't sound like you are, though.)

(2) I would say your law degree is a marital asset...