Amazon seller threatening to sue me because I won a warranty claim

[AmazonUser]

IL

I purchased a Camera item from an Amazon.com third party Marketplace seller. The item was the wrong model, plus the condition was listed as "Like New" but it was not in "Like New" condition because there was no box or manual. By Amazon standards "Like New" means it must come in the original retail packaging. I filed an Amazon A-to-Z Warranty Claim and Amazon found in my favor and sent me a full refund within 7 days.

The seller appealed the decision and lost, and now he sent me a certified letter threatening legal action against me, including criminal charges for theft. I think that these threats are baseless, however I don't have any evidence as to whether the Amazon claim arbitration is legally binding or not. I think his beef is with Amazon, not me, but I cannot find anything in the Amazon seller agreement about whether Amazon Warranty decisions are legally binding and leave me off the hook.

What is the proper way to respond to this letter? I have already gotten rid of the item and so I will not be returning it, and under Amazon's claim guidelines I am not obliged to return it since the seller misrepresented it.

Here are Amazon's policies which relate to this:

"Per our Policies for listing Amazon Marketplace items, sellers must accurately describe the product's condition. It is not sufficient to list differences from the stated condition in the comments (he did). This item was listed as Used - Like New. As we state in our condition guidelines, this condition means:

"Like New: An apparently untouched camera or photography item in perfect condition. The original wrapping may be missing, but the original packaging is intact. There are absolutely no signs of wear. Suitable for presenting as a gift.

"Because you listed an item in a different condition than the one advertised on the detail page, the item was materially different than described, and the buyer is automatically eligible for the A-to-z Guarantee, whether they return the item or not. We always hope that sellers and buyers are able to work out a transaction before resorting to the Guarantee, but once a Guarantee claim is filed, we must take appropriate action from our end. We have reimbursed the buyer and your seller account will be debited. If you'd like to view our Policies, Glossary and FAQs, please visit:"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161242

 

[CameronNewport]

Unless you can establish that the terms under which the seller sold the item limit the seller's ability to sue you, then you're screwed. In other words, the seller doesn't need to prove that the Amazon agreement allows him to sue you ... you need to prove that the Amazon agreement prohibits him from suing you. The language that you posted here does not do that.

As for responding to the letter, all you can do is point out terms which state that you don't need to return the item, and hope that is confusing enough to convince the seller to drop the issue.

 

[utmostpriority]

It sounds like you have abused the Amazon A and Z claim.

Although Amazon does not obligate a buyer to return the item to the seller in the case of the A and Z claim (which is very nonsensical), it is ethically proper for you to return it to the seller.
I have no idea how much the camera was worth, but I guess it was not an inexpensive item.
Did you ever try to ask for return to the seller before filing the claim?
If not, it is quite possible that you knew all the things in advance how it would end up if you won the claim; which means you could keep someone's property without paying a penny.
Amazon usually favors buyers rather than sellers in the case of their so called "Guaranteed A and Z claim" in which they force sellers to refund buyers and do not take care of the sellers' loss.

If you can swear that you did not ever have any intention to abuse the Amazon's claim service, I am sorry for telling you like this, but if you did so deliberately, you deserve being sued; Good luck!

 

[BL]

IL

I purchased a Camera item from an Amazon.com third party Marketplace seller. The item was the wrong model, plus the condition was listed as "Like New" but it was not in "Like New" condition because there was no box or manual. By Amazon standards "Like New" means it must come in the original retail packaging. I filed an Amazon A-to-Z Warranty Claim and Amazon found in my favor and sent me a full refund within 7 days.

The seller appealed the decision and lost, and now he sent me a certified letter threatening legal action against me, including criminal charges for theft. I think that these threats are baseless, however I don't have any evidence as to whether the Amazon claim arbitration is legally binding or not. I think his beef is with Amazon, not me, but I cannot find anything in the Amazon seller agreement about whether Amazon Warranty decisions are legally binding and leave me off the hook.

What is the proper way to respond to this letter? I have already gotten rid of the item and so I will not be returning it, and under Amazon's claim guidelines I am not obliged to return it since the seller misrepresented it.

Here are Amazon's policies which relate to this:

"Per our Policies for listing Amazon Marketplace items, sellers must accurately describe the product's condition. It is not sufficient to list differences from the stated condition in the comments (he did). This item was listed as Used - Like New. As we state in our condition guidelines, this condition means:

"Like New: An apparently untouched camera or photography item in perfect condition. The original wrapping may be missing, but the original packaging is intact. There are absolutely no signs of wear. Suitable for presenting as a gift.

"Because you listed an item in a different condition than the one advertised on the detail page, the item was materially different than described, and the buyer is automatically eligible for the A-to-z Guarantee, whether they return the item or not. We always hope that sellers and buyers are able to work out a transaction before resorting to the Guarantee, but once a Guarantee claim is filed, we must take appropriate action from our end. We have reimbursed the buyer and your seller account will be debited. If you'd like to view our Policies, Glossary and FAQs, please visit:"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161242

It appears this email is to the seller not the buyer ( you ).

Where as the buyer did you reteive this ?

 

[swalsh411]

It was entirely unethical of you to not return the camera after your money was refunded. I hope he sues you and I hope he wins, costing you a lot of time, frustration, and additional expense in the process.

 

[BL]

It was entirely unethical of you to not return the camera after your money was refunded. I hope he sues you and I hope he wins, costing you a lot of time, frustration, and additional expense in the process.

A buyer ,after an A-Z decision in their favor according to their policy does not have to return the item.

As a Side Note: Sellers know the policy.It was the seller that misrepresented the item and therefor pays the penalty.

I doubt very much if the seller will follow through with the threat . If he does , I'd expect him to lose because of amazon's policy.

I have bought off amazon and have filed complaints and was given refunds.

Only once I put the item back in the original packaging , resealed it and wrote return to sender at no cost to me for a return without filing a complaint.

 

[justalayman]

A buyer ,after an A-Z decision in their favor according to their policy does not have to return the item.

I do not see that in the policy stated. It simply said the buyer is getting a refund whether they return the item or not. I saw nothing stating they are not required to return the item or that the seller is SOL and not entitled to get the item back.

 

[swalsh411]

A buyer ,after an A-Z decision in their favor according to their policy does not have to return the item.

That may be (and I haven't taken the time to review the rules) but it doesn't change my opinion that it was unethical for the OP to not return the camera once he received a refund. I understand that it wasn't illegal and conforms with Amazon's policy.

 

[utmostpriority]

Well!

A buyer ,after an A-Z decision in their favor according to their policy does not have to return the item.

As a Side Note: Sellers know the policy.It was the seller that misrepresented the item and therefor pays the penalty.

I doubt very much if the seller will follow through with the threat . If he does , I'd expect him to lose because of amazon's policy.

I have bought off amazon and have filed complaints and was given refunds.

Only once I put the item back in the original packaging , resealed it and wrote return to sender at no cost to me for a return without filing a complaint.

I guess the originator of this thread seems to know the A and Z thing very well in advance and made a good use of it.
Anyway, it is ethically proper for a buyer to return the item to the seller if the money was refunded.
Just imagine that you as a seller at Amazon sold a $1000 item and the buyer deliberately abuse the claim; your expensive item was gone and you lost $1000.
Do you think you could sleep that night?

 

[justalayman]

ethical does not equate to legal and the legal requirements are all that matter.

 

[Zigner]

To put it simply, AMAZON doesn't require the item to be returned...but the law (almost definitely) does.

 

[utmostpriority]

That's why this society is rotten

ethical does not equate to legal and the legal requirements are all that matter.

It may be true that legal is all that matter; however, this is exactly why this society becomes rotten, abandoning ethic while worshiping legal.

 

[Zigner]

It may be true that legal is all that matter; however, this is exactly why this society becomes rotten, abandoning ethic while worshiping legal.

In this case, ethics and legality happen to align.

 

[justalayman]

To put it simply, AMAZON doesn't require the item to be returned...but the law (almost definitely) does.

that's what I suspected.

If accurate, this can be answered:

The seller appealed the decision and lost, and now he sent me a certified letter threatening legal action against me, including criminal charges for theft. I think that these threats are baseless, however I don't have any evidence as to whether the Amazon claim arbitration is legally binding or not. I think his beef is with Amazon, not me, but I cannot find anything in the Amazon seller agreement about whether Amazon Warranty decisions are legally binding and leave me off the hook.*

be afraid. Be very afraid. In some states this would be considered conversion. In others, some form of theft. The Amazon policy is binding on the transaction but unless they state the buyer has no obligation to return the item, it has nothing to do with your problem. You need to either send the seller the money or the item. Anything less is criminal.

 

[AmazonUser]

Thank you all for the responses but it appears that posting to this forum gets you many opinions and not a lot of real legal advice. Are there any actual attorneys with consumer law experience posting to this site?

The Amazon A-to-Z claim system is called a "warranty". My purchase was under the umbrella of Amazon.com and is fully covered by this warranty in case anything goes wrong. If I buy something from them and it turns out to be misrepresented by the third party seller, or "materially different" in their words, then their policy is that I am entitled to automatically receive a refund on my claim. It was the seller who tryed to abuse the system by listing an older, lesser model camera item in a different condition, listing it as "Like New" which is trying to cheat to get a "Like New" price when it's not, and then stating otherwise in the comments which is not allowed. Perhaps it was all a mistake on his part but he didn't follow the rules. And he got caught. (And I noticed he had other items listed in the wrong condition and trying to cover it in the comments--he was going to get caught eventually).

When I purchased the item I entered into an agreement with Amazon, part of which includes that I have warranty coverage if the seller sends me something which is "materially different" that what was on the listing page. This coverage is one of the reasons I buy from Amazon and not from some other no-name site. The seller also entered into an agreement with Amazon to honestly represent the items he lists, and not to list for sale a newer 2010 model (II) and then ship the buyer and older, less valuable 2001 model (I). His agreement with Amazon is also to fairly represent the condition of the item, which he also did not do: He listed as "Like New" an item that was clearly used (paint missing) and had no manual or retail packaging.

I consider his letter a baseless threat and he lives in another state with no jurisdiction over my state so if he wants to sue me he would have to come here and file a suit. I highly doubt he has the time or the resources to file a suit he will likely lose because it has already been arbitrated and resolved by Amazon. When the seller signed up to sell on Amazon he agreed to follow their listing guidelines and it's no different from a PayPal dispute or a credit card dispute where PayPal or the card issuer finds in favor of the consumer. I have never heard of a consumer being sued directly in an instance where PayPal or a credit card company found in their favor. I believe there are arbitration laws in effect that protect the consumer from such lawsuits. I have heard of plenty of consumers suing businesses over shady business practices, but I have never in my life heard of a single instance of a business suing a consumer over a payment dispute resolved by a credit card company, etc. Then again I did read about some jackass suing an eBay buyer for simply leaving negative feedback!!

I am not going to respond to this threat except to possibly inform Amazon about it if this person takes additional steps to harass me. I don't necessarily want to do this as this seller could lose their selling privileges (Amazon is VERY strict) but I considered this case closed when Amazon honored my warranty. Once a claim is filed, communication should be through the Amazon claims system and I'm sure that Amazon would frown on a Marketplace seller sending threatening letters directly to an Amazon customer. They consider me their customer, not his, (they won't even give him my email address) and this results in very "poor buyer experience" to use Amazon's words.

If there are any attorneys with experience in this area I would like to hear from them, especially if you know of any cases where a business actually sued a consumer after the consumer received a dispute resolution in their favor from Amazon, PayPal, or their credit car company. Thanks everyone!!