complex support issues: father is self employed, mother is full time student

[liberty007]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

I'm worried that I won't be able to continue full time college in case the court orders me to work full time. I just want some insight on what might happen due to the visitation and custody arrangement.

We have financial review in two weeks. I'm very stressed out about it. I've had a change since the marriage from working full time for a relatively brief period to a year long illness to then back part time work, plus unemployment, plus full time student with federal pell grant. Now I'm unemployed from the school district but hoping to get picked back up again.

We have four children. Two children live with their father and two live with me. During every weekend, holiday and all school breaks the children are always all together so custody is 50/50 summer time and 80/20 for father for two kids during school year and 80/20 for mother for the other two kids during the school year. It averages out to 50/50 basically The reason this is so is because we live an hour apart and these were the best choices for the kids for education. There are 3 in high school and one in junior high. the oldest one will be turning 18 in April and lives with father.

In 20 years of marriage I had stayed home with the kids for 13 years.

Father is self employed and he hides his income (cashes check payments at the bank instead of depositing or gets cash) or uses a lot of deductions to decrease his taxable amount. He pays his rent and truck payment most times, plus he has to eat. His expenses for living in this bare minimum have to be about 3000. He can't/wont provide tax documents or a monthly profit and loss because he's always owing the bookkeeper money and they won't release documents.

During an initial income and expense hearing he was ordered to pay $573 to me for support for two kids based on his expenses. This was for two months only until the next hearing which ended up being postponed. and the next hearing after that we were both ordered to go through the income and expense thing again because of a surgery of his and unable to work for awhile.

This is my most recent work history:

2007 returned to work, PT
2008 worked 9 months FT
2009 worked 12 months FT, was in school 3/4 time
2010 worked until september went out on disability was in school 1/2 time Jan-July
2011 July STbX moved out. I returned to work PT in september
2012 continued PT work and FT school. I am still a FT student and hope to return to PT work

Income. In the past 12 months my average income from wages, disability, and unemployment are about 1000 per month.
disability and unemployment are no longer a factor except in the 12 month average. I can't get them any more.

I received a federal pell grant for the school year 2011-2012.

In my education I have come to the point where I am ready to transfer the the University. Previous studies were at the junior college. I need to attend school full time so I can finish a degree and get a teaching job. Teaching is my career goal.

I know I can work part time and attend school full time but I don't think I can work full time and attend school full time and my program won't work for me at part time. I have 7 semesters left and am motivated to do summer school.

 

[LdiJ]

The court cannot order you to work full time. All they can do is impute an income to you that would be what you would be capable of earning on a full time basis.

 

[liberty007]

The court cannot order you to work full time. All they can do is impute an income to you that would be what you would be capable of earning on a full time basis.

and so if I were imputed I would have to earn enough income to make sure I can pay for any order for child support. OK this is not as scary to me.

How do they determine how much income to impute?

 

[LdiJ]

and so if I were imputed I would have to earn enough income to make sure I can pay for any order for child support. OK this is not as scary to me.

How do they determine how much income to impute?

Most often it is imputed at full time, minimum wage. Other times they go by the last wage you made when working full time. Why do you think that the orders are going to change from dad paying child support to you, to you paying child support to dad?

 

[CourtClerk]

When you have 4 kids to support, you don't get the luxury of going to school full time. Work full time and go to school part time. Lots of us have done it.

 

[Just Blue]

Most often it is imputed at full time, minimum wage. Other times they go by the last wage you made when working full time. Why do you think that the orders are going to change from dad paying child support to you, to you paying child support to dad?

I agree. And I just don't understand why this is "complex".

OP, Just in case you were not aware...MANY parents work FT and go to school FT. Your youngest is old enough for this to be a GOOD option for you. Jus' sayin'.

 

[liberty007]

Why do you think that the orders are going to change from dad paying child support to you, to you paying child support to dad?

Because he hides his income and is self employed. I just want to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

 

[LdiJ]

Because he hides his income and is self employed. I just want to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

Ok...and by the way. If you can take out student loans and budget yourself so that you can go to school full time, MORE POWER TO YOU! I for one would rather see you get your education as quickly as possible so that you become a full fledged taxpayer as quickly as possible.

 

[liberty007]

This is long. sorry.

When you have 4 kids to support, you don't get the luxury of going to school full time. Work full time and go to school part time. Lots of us have done it.

CourtClerk, I have to say your statement stung but I do have information for you and maybe I might get some better insight. Also please know that I have been very very stressed over this whole transition. I already made it through the custody battle and was lucky that the mediator didn't request changes, that the kids dad was the one who requested full custody to the court and I had to defend myself. He chose to go along with the mediator's suggestion to leave it as it is. Its been a big fight for the past two years. I am trying very hard to explain this rationally without feeling like I deserve or entitled to anything. I know I made choices which led me down this path. When it came to life or death I chose life and began learning and making changes.

I know California is a no-fault state and a community property state. Marriage is an economic arrangement.

I married at 19 and stuck the marriage through for 20 years until I realized the relationship was emotionally abusive. During the years of marriage and as we raised the 5 kids (the oldest one is an adult and not a factor for child support so I left him out of the original equation) I did not work until the youngest entered kindergarden. I had no recent job skills and had not been able to complete my college education. All these years I had been frustrated that I was dependent upon a man because I had children and couldn't support them so I stayed with it. He always wanted me to stay home so with my domestic support he could take on whatever work he needed to support the family. When I wanted to work and have the opportunity to go to college he didn't give me the same emotional or economic support I had given him. And I certainly couldn't get financial aide because his bookkeeping methods were a mess, and he didn't want me educated anyway, so I had to be happy with part time school at a junior college and full time work. And when I earned money it was our money and his money stayed his money. You can see why the marriage didn't last.

The highest rate of pay that I earned was 14 per hour and I worked in that capacity for only 15 months before all the **** hit the fan. That is just over one year out of 20. In the two years since the initial breakup (we stayed together for a year) I have only worked part time during the most recent year.

My point in writing all of this is really I am stuck in an 8 to 10 dollar an hour rate for now at full time, especially because of my rural locality, without continuing in college. During all those years of my adulthood I had to put aside what has now become the very reason that I can't provide very much (higher salary) for my kids, my education so he could work the way he wanted to.

He has the skills and ability he has maintained all the years of the marriage. Right now he's choosing not to work or not declaring the income that he is doing. And if he does declare it he makes sure he has a ton of business expenses that eat up the profits on the schedule C. The skills and ability I have maintained have been relegated to the domestic sphere and to what work I managed to do in the past years. He asked me to waive spousal support and I said no. So for my 20 year investment in a economic partnership I get no more than a guarantee of minimum wage and for his 20 year investment he gets a skilled trade and the ability to charge $65 per hour (illegally I might add--unlicensed contractor). The nature of the type of business he has built up is something that depends upon him as the laborer so its not like I get part of the profits as a marital asset.

I can't just stay home and keep house and I know that and I have been busting my ass to make ends meet. So why for me is education a luxury?

Now I understand that the needs of the kids always are a priority. I also know I'll be also ordered to pay child support as he has two of our kids in his home. I also know he has a far greater ability to make an income than I do. But I'm still gonna bust ass because the only way I can get a stable foothold in life is to go out and get it. But I feel the deck is stacked against me without education especially since I don't expect to receive any financial support from him because he hides income and his imputation if any may not be very high.

As for working full time and school full time I can try. I had been on a year of disability caused by the emotional abuse, with depression and acute anxiety. I lost my one good paying job because of this because I wasn't able to return after FMLA. After a year and especially once he moved out for good I was well enough to go off disability and re-entered work at PT in a different field. After the first half of the year I re-entered school at FT units. I didn't crack. I could emotionally handle both loads. But time is a factor, because he griped that I had to work and was going to school and that was his reason for wanting custody in the first place. I surely can't work PM shifts or NOC shifts. I can work day shifts and go to school in the evening but I also have to have time to drive to see my kids that live an hour away and I wouldn't miss those visits for anything. And college is also a drive. It has been in the area where my non-custodial kids are but after this fall semester I'll be a little closer to home but will have to drive a little farther to see my kids.

So. that's that.

yes I have asked for spousal support but there has been no opportunity to get any and the only orders that we have gotten so far have been for two months of child support which he didn't pay and I didn't take to CSS because he had a knee surgery two days before the order and obviously couldn't pay. Plus I was told this order could be reversed so I didn't move on it. We have been seperated almost a year with papers filed in November. The divorce is not final. He offered an MSA which I refused because he wanted me to waive my rights to spousal support.

and he has told me that he won't pay child support. I'm not expecting to receive anything even if I do get orders. He has consistantly refused to pay taxes, payroll taxes, file taxes, pay tickets, and I don't imagine child support ranks up there especially if *his ex wife gets to choose how to care for the kids with his money*

in other words, there has been no consistant opportunity for orders to be placed for support of any kind for either party. there won't be any money coming in, and I will be paying my part...and this is all coming in two weeks. and I'm frustrated!

ETA: I didn't mention that I also have to file bankruptcy? As he continues to make late payments on a truck that I am on the loan for? And that there are no marital assets after 20 years but he has a personal injury suit pending with repressed memory of sexual abuse...and the injury happened before marriage but he didn't remember until the last year of marriage and guess what....I don't think that is community property. (and he didn't disclose this to the court as far as income and expenses)

but that's the way it works.

 

[LdiJ]

This is long. sorry.



CourtClerk, I have to say your statement stung but I do have information for you and maybe I might get some better insight. Also please know that I have been very very stressed over this whole transition. I already made it through the custody battle and was lucky that the mediator didn't request changes, that the kids dad was the one who requested full custody to the court and I had to defend myself. He chose to go along with the mediator's suggestion to leave it as it is. Its been a big fight for the past two years. I am trying very hard to explain this rationally without feeling like I deserve or entitled to anything. I know I made choices which led me down this path. When it came to life or death I chose life and began learning and making changes.

I know California is a no-fault state and a community property state. Marriage is an economic arrangement.

I married at 19 and stuck the marriage through for 20 years until I realized the relationship was emotionally abusive. During the years of marriage and as we raised the 5 kids (the oldest one is an adult and not a factor for child support so I left him out of the original equation) I did not work until the youngest entered kindergarden. I had no recent job skills and had not been able to complete my college education. All these years I had been frustrated that I was dependent upon a man because I had children and couldn't support them so I stayed with it. He always wanted me to stay home so with my domestic support he could take on whatever work he needed to support the family. When I wanted to work and have the opportunity to go to college he didn't give me the same emotional or economic support I had given him. And I certainly couldn't get financial aide because his bookkeeping methods were a mess, and he didn't want me educated anyway, so I had to be happy with part time school at a junior college and full time work. And when I earned money it was our money and his money stayed his money. You can see why the marriage didn't last.

The highest rate of pay that I earned was 14 per hour and I worked in that capacity for only 15 months before all the **** hit the fan. That is just over one year out of 20. In the two years since the initial breakup (we stayed together for a year) I have only worked part time during the most recent year.

My point in writing all of this is really I am stuck in an 8 to 10 dollar an hour rate for now at full time, especially because of my rural locality, without continuing in college. During all those years of my adulthood I had to put aside what has now become the very reason that I can't provide very much (higher salary) for my kids, my education so he could work the way he wanted to.

He has the skills and ability he has maintained all the years of the marriage. Right now he's choosing not to work or not declaring the income that he is doing. And if he does declare it he makes sure he has a ton of business expenses that eat up the profits on the schedule C. The skills and ability I have maintained have been relegated to the domestic sphere and to what work I managed to do in the past years. He asked me to waive spousal support and I said no. So for my 20 year investment in a economic partnership I get no more than a guarantee of minimum wage and for his 20 year investment he gets a skilled trade and the ability to charge $65 per hour (illegally I might add--unlicensed contractor). The nature of the type of business he has built up is something that depends upon him as the laborer so its not like I get part of the profits as a marital asset.

I can't just stay home and keep house and I know that and I have been busting my ass to make ends meet. So why for me is education a luxury?

Now I understand that the needs of the kids always are a priority. I also know I'll be also ordered to pay child support as he has two of our kids in his home. I also know he has a far greater ability to make an income than I do. But I'm still gonna bust ass because the only way I can get a stable foothold in life is to go out and get it. But I feel the deck is stacked against me without education especially since I don't expect to receive any financial support from him because he hides income and his imputation if any may not be very high.

As for working full time and school full time I can try. I had been on a year of disability caused by the emotional abuse, with depression and acute anxiety. I lost my one good paying job because of this because I wasn't able to return after FMLA. After a year and especially once he moved out for good I was well enough to go off disability and re-entered work at PT in a different field. After the first half of the year I re-entered school at FT units. I didn't crack. I could emotionally handle both loads. But time is a factor, because he griped that I had to work and was going to school and that was his reason for wanting custody in the first place. I surely can't work PM shifts or NOC shifts. I can work day shifts and go to school in the evening but I also have to have time to drive to see my kids that live an hour away and I wouldn't miss those visits for anything. And college is also a drive. It has been in the area where my non-custodial kids are but after this fall semester I'll be a little closer to home but will have to drive a little farther to see my kids.

So. that's that.

yes I have asked for spousal support but there has been no opportunity to get any and the only orders that we have gotten so far have been for two months of child support which he didn't pay and I didn't take to CSS because he had a knee surgery two days before the order and obviously couldn't pay. Plus I was told this order could be reversed so I didn't move on it. We have been seperated almost a year with papers filed in November. The divorce is not final. He offered an MSA which I refused because he wanted me to waive my rights to spousal support.

and he has told me that he won't pay child support. I'm not expecting to receive anything even if I do get orders. He has consistantly refused to pay taxes, payroll taxes, file taxes, pay tickets, and I don't imagine child support ranks up there especially if *his ex wife gets to choose how to care for the kids with his money*in other words, there has been no consistant opportunity for orders to be placed for support of any kind for either party. there won't be any money coming in, and I will be paying my part...and this is all coming in two weeks. and I'm frustrated!

ETA: I didn't mention that I also have to file bankruptcy? As he continues to make late payments on a truck that I am on the loan for? And that there are no marital assets after 20 years but he has a personal injury suit pending with repressed memory of sexual abuse...and the injury happened before marriage but he didn't remember until the last year of marriage and guess what....I don't think that is community property. (and he didn't disclose this to the court as far as income and expenses)

but that's the way it works.

I REALLY hope that you have not been filing joint tax returns with this person....

 

[liberty007]

**and this is the frustrated rant. (by the way I do have a lawyer)

yes I had. And yes I economically suffered the consequences. When I was working for wages my income was attached for the most recent federal lein. Then the taxes were not filed for four years. Then he made an arrangment to get the taxes done with the CPA and filed, because there was then a combined 10K refund for those years. The CPA bill was 5K the remainder we were to split. I signed the checks at the CPA office and guess who didn't get their half of the remainder? Thats right, me. But all tax obligations are made at this time. If there is an audit maybe there might be more consequences for me. I don't know.

From then on I will not trust him at all and will give no quarter or ounce of trust financially. Nor do I depend on him.

I have taken the high road with the kids since the split because I want them to have their dad and as normal a life as possible. and that's a whole nother story. He can hang himself I won't be the one to do it.

Edited to add: I filed my tax return this year on time. I provided him a copy and he said he could not get me his as he did not file it and he owes the CPA money again.

 

[ajkroy]

This is long. sorry.



CourtClerk, I have to say your statement stung but I do have information for you and maybe I might get some better insight. Also please know that I have been very very stressed over this whole transition. I already made it through the custody battle and was lucky that the mediator didn't request changes, that the kids dad was the one who requested full custody to the court and I had to defend myself. He chose to go along with the mediator's suggestion to leave it as it is. Its been a big fight for the past two years. I am trying very hard to explain this rationally without feeling like I deserve or entitled to anything. I know I made choices which led me down this path. When it came to life or death I chose life and began learning and making changes.

I know California is a no-fault state and a community property state. Marriage is an economic arrangement.

I married at 19 and stuck the marriage through for 20 years until I realized the relationship was emotionally abusive. During the years of marriage and as we raised the 5 kids (the oldest one is an adult and not a factor for child support so I left him out of the original equation) I did not work until the youngest entered kindergarden. I had no recent job skills and had not been able to complete my college education. All these years I had been frustrated that I was dependent upon a man because I had children and couldn't support them so I stayed with it. He always wanted me to stay home so with my domestic support he could take on whatever work he needed to support the family. When I wanted to work and have the opportunity to go to college he didn't give me the same emotional or economic support I had given him. And I certainly couldn't get financial aide because his bookkeeping methods were a mess, and he didn't want me educated anyway, so I had to be happy with part time school at a junior college and full time work. And when I earned money it was our money and his money stayed his money. You can see why the marriage didn't last.

The highest rate of pay that I earned was 14 per hour and I worked in that capacity for only 15 months before all the **** hit the fan. That is just over one year out of 20. In the two years since the initial breakup (we stayed together for a year) I have only worked part time during the most recent year.

My point in writing all of this is really I am stuck in an 8 to 10 dollar an hour rate for now at full time, especially because of my rural locality, without continuing in college. During all those years of my adulthood I had to put aside what has now become the very reason that I can't provide very much (higher salary) for my kids, my education so he could work the way he wanted to.

He has the skills and ability he has maintained all the years of the marriage. Right now he's choosing not to work or not declaring the income that he is doing. And if he does declare it he makes sure he has a ton of business expenses that eat up the profits on the schedule C. The skills and ability I have maintained have been relegated to the domestic sphere and to what work I managed to do in the past years. He asked me to waive spousal support and I said no. So for my 20 year investment in a economic partnership I get no more than a guarantee of minimum wage and for his 20 year investment he gets a skilled trade and the ability to charge $65 per hour (illegally I might add--unlicensed contractor). The nature of the type of business he has built up is something that depends upon him as the laborer so its not like I get part of the profits as a marital asset.

I can't just stay home and keep house and I know that and I have been busting my ass to make ends meet. So why for me is education a luxury?

Now I understand that the needs of the kids always are a priority. I also know I'll be also ordered to pay child support as he has two of our kids in his home. I also know he has a far greater ability to make an income than I do. But I'm still gonna bust ass because the only way I can get a stable foothold in life is to go out and get it. But I feel the deck is stacked against me without education especially since I don't expect to receive any financial support from him because he hides income and his imputation if any may not be very high.

As for working full time and school full time I can try. I had been on a year of disability caused by the emotional abuse, with depression and acute anxiety. I lost my one good paying job because of this because I wasn't able to return after FMLA. After a year and especially once he moved out for good I was well enough to go off disability and re-entered work at PT in a different field. After the first half of the year I re-entered school at FT units. I didn't crack. I could emotionally handle both loads. But time is a factor, because he griped that I had to work and was going to school and that was his reason for wanting custody in the first place. I surely can't work PM shifts or NOC shifts. I can work day shifts and go to school in the evening but I also have to have time to drive to see my kids that live an hour away and I wouldn't miss those visits for anything. And college is also a drive. It has been in the area where my non-custodial kids are but after this fall semester I'll be a little closer to home but will have to drive a little farther to see my kids.

So. that's that.

yes I have asked for spousal support but there has been no opportunity to get any and the only orders that we have gotten so far have been for two months of child support which he didn't pay and I didn't take to CSS because he had a knee surgery two days before the order and obviously couldn't pay. Plus I was told this order could be reversed so I didn't move on it. We have been seperated almost a year with papers filed in November. The divorce is not final. He offered an MSA which I refused because he wanted me to waive my rights to spousal support.

and he has told me that he won't pay child support. I'm not expecting to receive anything even if I do get orders. He has consistantly refused to pay taxes, payroll taxes, file taxes, pay tickets, and I don't imagine child support ranks up there especially if *his ex wife gets to choose how to care for the kids with his money*

in other words, there has been no consistant opportunity for orders to be placed for support of any kind for either party. there won't be any money coming in, and I will be paying my part...and this is all coming in two weeks. and I'm frustrated!

ETA: I didn't mention that I also have to file bankruptcy? As he continues to make late payments on a truck that I am on the loan for? And that there are no marital assets after 20 years but he has a personal injury suit pending with repressed memory of sexual abuse...and the injury happened before marriage but he didn't remember until the last year of marriage and guess what....I don't think that is community property. (and he didn't disclose this to the court as far as income and expenses)

but that's the way it works.

You are still making emotional choices, rather than economical ones. You could have chosen to take a shorter courseload in something that would give you more job security and more money than teaching. A ten-month LPN course will give you an average $40-45K per year in California. See what I mean?

I went to school FT and worked FT while I was the sole provider of an infant. If I can do it, anybody can.

 

[Just Blue]

**. (by the way I do have a lawyer)

.

You do realize that the VOLUNTEERS here volunteer to assist Pro Se litigants (for the most part)? YOU have an attorney. Perhaps you should take the "rant" to her/him.

 

[liberty007]

I don't see it making emotional choices. Yes I'm frustrated and I do admit things look different and sometimes I can't see things. I have the ability and desire to chew over advice because I know that frustration can limit me. I want to be able to look at different angles and views.

I was on the pre-nursing track when I found out about the things that had occurred that caused the initial breakup. I was within 2 semesters of applying for RN program at a community college. which is then two years. I decided as a single parent with a co-parent that monitered my every hour and questioned all my choices with how I spent my time that nursing school and subsequent overnight shifts and all the pressure of the school was not going to work for me. Plus nursing in California is impacted and the RN programs at community level in my area are by lottery so there is no guarantee of beginning that program right away. I did not want to take the higher cost road of private school and be in debt. Since I had loved mathematics during my prenursing track I decided to go with mathematics.

At the point I started the length of the program for nursing and the length of the program for bachelors in mathematics are the same length, but mathematics has less pressure. Mathematics is not impacted. There are teaching grants available for California teachers and Mathematics is one area of high need. There are also state grants which pay back loans if you work in areas of high need. I can be earning 35-40K within 3-4 years and I can maintain a schedule which is similar to my children's schedule with both educational track (true for nursing too I think) and once I'm employed.

I see Mathematics as being at least a good economic choice as nursing because of the lack of impaction and the increase of funds and the need for math teachers.

But I agree, making it through an LVN school with a FT job and a new baby is motivational. Good for you.

 

[liberty007]

You do realize that the VOLUNTEERS here volunteer to assist Pro Se litigants (for the most part)? YOU have an attorney. Perhaps you should take the "rant" to her/him.

I was not aware this forum was solely for pro-se litigants. I was looking for hope that I could continue my path with education. The frustration of the obstacles I have encountered in just trying to live my life have been a lot. The courts don't decide anything and I know I don't deserve anything because of or based on my frustration and I know this.

There are benchnotes for California (I think this is what it is called) regarding income and imputation and caselaw regarding parents who were imputed income when they were in college. My attorney has a busy caseload and I am doing research as to what I can reasonably expect so I can plan accordingly. She suggests the court will not impute against me as I have been working part time and doing what I can while going to school. I cannot be sure this will happen.