Theft of water from commercial building - how do I compute damages

[Wayner]

California

Recently I caught 2 sub-contractors, namely a power wash company hired to clean the common area of the shopping center and a landscape company stealing my building's water by connecting to the exterior facet. When I confronted these contractors and asked them to stop immediately they confessed that they have been doing it for years (pumping water from my building) with the approval from the property management company (which does not pay for my building's water useage).

Upon inquiring with the management company they denied of ever giving such consent but blamed it to the subcontracting service company who is responsible of hiring 2 these contractors (the landscape and the power wash companies). The subcontracting service company admitted that they were using my building's water and was the one giving the ok to the power washing company to connect their tank with my building's exterior water facet.

Although both companies admitted of wrong doing and decided to pay for damages. However I do not agree with the computation of the water usage and the amount of damages (which is ridiculously low). I am thinking about taking these companies to arbitration but the questions I have is:

1. Have there been cases where people have sued others for stealing water ?
2. How do I go about to compute for the damages for excessive water usage ?
3. The subcontractors said they have only used it a few times and

Thanks.

 

[tranquility]

1. Have there been cases where people have sued others for stealing water ?

Of course. Heck, much of California law developed over water rights. That and the railroads.

2. How do I go about to compute for the damages for excessive water usage ?

By whatever means a court would find reasonable.

3. The subcontractors said they have only used it a few times and

You're not going to be able to prove just about any damages. I'd take the ridiculously low figure they offered. I might do some negotiations first. But, you can't really prove to anyone how much you were hurt so you are not going to get a ton in compensation.

 

[FarmerJ]

DId they offer a amount that was for water only? ( had to ask LOL since I know lots places have OUTrageous sewer rates ) any way your local water dept can assist you say determining cubic feet into gallons and same likely with sewer fees if you need to do some research and in the time being Id say its time to look into sub metering system that will also inc all your outside faucets in order to help you moniter how much water is used and where. Of course if your not submetering water and sewer now it sure would tell you wich tenants are using how much and allow you to re bill based on actual use.

 

[Wayner]

DId they offer a amount that was for water only? ( had to ask LOL since I know lots places have OUTrageous sewer rates ) any way your local water dept can assist you say determining cubic feet into gallons and same likely with sewer fees if you need to do some research and in the time being Id say its time to look into sub metering system that will also inc all your outside faucets in order to help you moniter how much water is used and where. Of course if your not submetering water and sewer now it sure would tell you wich tenants are using how much and allow you to re bill based on actual use.

There is no submeter that tells me how much water is being used from the exterior water facet but one thing I did notice is the significant drop in the water usage and the water bill. The power wash company denied of ever filling up their water tanks but I bet to differ base upon the trend in water consumption.

Yes they only offer to pay for water but the amount they offer does not even cover a month of water bill let alone years of abuse. If I did not discover or caught them in the act red handed they would have continued to drive up the water bill and I would be the one who still have to pay the extra.

Right now i am trying to figure out what CCF is and how water usage charge is computed for the city. It is not cheap for commercial buildings.

 

[xylene]

Right now i am trying to figure out what CCF is and how water usage charge is computed for the city.

CCF = 100 Cubic Feet

1 CCF = ~748 gallons

 

[justalayman]

the problem:


you cannot prove anything they do not admit to. While there may be a difference in usage between now and when they were using the water, how do you prove it was the same people that used the water years ago, or that anybody was using it?

 

[xylene]

You have your subcontractors admission that they wrongly gave usage permissions to others.


Pursue them or insist they make it worth you while...


I have no idea why you would stick with them at any rate.

 

[BigMouthWino]

the problem:


you cannot prove anything they do not admit to. While there may be a difference in usage between now and when they were using the water, how do you prove it was the same people that used the water years ago, or that anybody was using it?

I see your memory and ability of recall have not improved much over the last couple of weeks. OP originally said:

they confessed that they have been doing it for years (pumping water from my building) with the approval from the property management company (which does not pay for my building's water useage).

Read the ENTIRE post from beginning to end, it will help you to understand what is going on.

 

[justalayman]

I see your memory and ability of recall have not improved much over the last couple of weeks. OP originally said:



Read the ENTIRE post from beginning to end, it will help you to understand what is going on.

and OP said this:

3. The subcontractors said they have only used it a few times and

and causing even more difficulty:

The subcontracting service company admitted that they were using my building's water and was the one giving the ok to the power washing company to connect their tank with my building's exterior water facet.

(the landscape and the power wash companies).

there were multiple parties using the water. So, who is responsible for what water usage?

and of course we have this:

When I confronted these contractors and asked them to stop immediately they confessed that they have been doing it for years (pumping water from my building) with the approval from the property management company (which does not pay for my building's water useage).

and this:

Upon inquiring with the management company they denied of ever giving such consent

so, who used how much water and who is liable for it? Answer that wino. I'll be glad to accept percentages since we do not have actual consumption figures.

 

[FarmerJ]

You might not ever know the true volume of water they used BUT again your free to take steps to prevent this some thing as simple as having all faucets that can be hooked up to by anyone inc the public removed / locked , Your free to install sub meters or even use a formula to have tenants pay percentage ( written into lease renewals )

 

[xylene]

so, who used how much water and who is liable for it? Answer that wino. I'll be glad to accept percentages since we do not have actual consumption figures.

The subcontractor is liable for the unauthorized water use. They can go after their people...

Proving how much was used... that is another matter.

That there was unauthorized use is established.

The subcontractor can say "Well I let Jerry steal maybe 80% and John steal 15 and the other 5% I have no clue..." That's not a defense.


How much water was stolen is the issue.

Water was stolen

 

[LdiJ]

The subcontractor is liable for the unauthorized water use. They can go after their people...

Proving how much was used... that is another matter.

That there was unauthorized use is established.

The subcontractor can say "Well I let Jerry steal maybe 80% and John steal 15 and the other 5% I have no clue..." That's not a defense.


How much water was stolen is the issue.

Water was stolen

There is a way that is logical that can help determine how much water was used. I have to assume that power washing does not take place on the monthly basis. Compare the average water usage in months when power washing did not occur, to months when it did. A business should have several years worth of water bills available to use for this purpose.

If power washing did take place on a monthly basis, then determine the drop in water usage after the outside faucet is locked so that it cannot be used by anyone on an unauthorized basis.

And by the way....there is a REALLY easy way to lock the faucet...unscrew the bolt that holds the handle onto the faucet. Then the water cannot be turned on or off without putting the handle back on. I had to do that to stop "wassna me" from constantly turning on my outside faucet to play in the water.

 

[justalayman]

The subcontractor is liable for the unauthorized water use. They can go after their people...

]

which subcontractor.

I see a subcontractor servicing company and two subs under them. I presume you mean the servicing company. If so, that company would have no right to go after their people. They are who authorized their people to use the water.

then, the people that said they were using it for years also seemed to have said this:

3. The subcontractors said they have only used it a few times and

so, we are at: what can you prove because that is all you will win in court.

 

[xylene]

And by the way....there is a REALLY easy way to lock the faucet...unscrew the bolt that holds the handle onto the faucet. Then the water cannot be turned on or off without putting the handle back on. I had to do that to stop "wassna me" from constantly turning on my outside faucet to play in the water.

I have a tool shaped just like that faucet handle bolt on a key ring.

 

[tranquility]

The plaintiff has the element of PROVING damages. Supposing damages does not fly. Go through a bunch of Civil procedure cases on lost profits and the like for examples of the problem. Simply comparing a month with the harm to a month without the harm does not proof make.

No matter how much math the OP does, he is not going to be fully compensated for his hurt. The reason is not the unfairness of the world, but in the fact he has no idea how much he was hurt. Even once he does any reasonable calculation, the court will determine if that is the damages by a preponderance of the evidence. (We will assume the calculations get in. Personally, I suspect that outside of small claims the OP may very well need some type of expert to give his opinion on the amount of loss.) Unless the power washing company was using a ton of water, there is little chance this is more than a small claims action for conversion. The damages are not going to be that great no matter how hard the OP tries.

Negotiations will net far more money than litigation here.