Parental Alienation vs. Parental Alienation Syndrome

[father99782]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? KY

I've read a number of threads discussing the issue of Parental Alienation. It seems that anytime the word "Syndrome" is used in conjunction with "Parental Alienation", everyone gets really upset. I'm curious. What is it about the Syndrome that creates such a visceral response?

"Syndrome" has been defined as follows: "In medicine and psychology, a syndrome is the association of several clinically recognizable features, signs (observed by someone other than the patient), symptoms (reported by the patient), phenomena or characteristics that often occur together, so that the presence of one or more features alerts the healthcare provider to the possible presence of the others." (Wikipedia)

Is not Parental Alienation a syndrome, based upon this definition?

Some of the vitriol against using the term "syndrome" seems to be directed against the controversial figure of Dr. Richard Gardner, who coined the term in the first place. But, even if he was the horrible, evil person everyone seems to think he was, does that mean Parental Alienation Syndrome is false? Bashing a theory with personal attacks seems intellectually dishonest at best. Irrespective of who coined the term, what is it about the framework of the PAS theory that folks find so unpalatable? Everyone is quick to state that it's been supposedly "rejected" by every major medical and psychological association, but my question is why?

My suspicion is that most folks have not actually read the details of the theory of PAS. They simply do not like the term "syndrome" because it gives too much power to psychologists and other expert witnesses, and because it makes child custody cases even more complicated than they already are. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Judges are already well-equipped to identify alienating behavior. We don't need to medicalize everything and turn it into a syndrome...

Yet, I submit that in most cases of Parental Alienation, much if not all of the alienating behavior takes place behind closed doors. The underlying psychology and the associated personality traits (e.g. borderline/narcissistic), are not going to readily manifest themselves in a courtroom. I think simply reducing Parental Alienation to outward behavior, and ignoring the underlying psychology, will lead to a lot of bad decisions in our domestic courts. Whether you call Parental Alienation a syndrome, or a disorder, or a dynamic is moot. Ignoring the psychology behind it is not.

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 

[CSO286]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? KY

I've read a number of threads discussing the issue of Parental Alienation. It seems that anytime the word "Syndrome" is used in conjunction with "Parental Alienation", everyone around here goes apoplectic. I'm curious. What is it about the Syndrome that creates such a visceral response?

"Syndrome" has been defined as follows: "In medicine and psychology, a syndrome is the association of several clinically recognizable features, signs (observed by someone other than the patient), symptoms (reported by the patient), phenomena or characteristics that often occur together, so that the presence of one or more features alerts the healthcare provider to the possible presence of the others." (Wikipedia)

Is not Parental Alienation a syndrome, based upon this definition?

Some of the vitriol against using the term "syndrome" seems to be directed against the controversial figure of Dr. Richard Gardner, who coined the term in the first place. But, even if he was the horrible, evil person everyone seems to think he was, does that mean Parental Alienation Syndrome is false? Bashing a theory with personal attacks seems intellectually dishonest at best. Irrespective of who coined the term, what is it about the framework of the PAS theory that folks find so unpalatable? Everyone is quick to state that it's been supposedly "rejected" by every major medical and psychological association, but my question is why?

My suspicion is that most folks have not actually read the details of the theory of PAS. They simply do not like the term "syndrome" because it gives too much power to psychologists and other expert witnesses, and because it makes child custody cases even more complicated than they already are. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Judges are already well-equipped to identify alienating behavior. We don't need to medicalize everything and turn it into a syndrome...

Yet, I submit that in most cases of Parental Alienation, much if not all of the alienating behavior takes place behind closed doors. The underlying psychology and the associated personality traits (e.g. borderline/narcissistic), are not going to readily manifest themselves in a courtroom. I think simply reducing Parental Alienation to outward behavior, and ignoring the underlying psychology, will lead to a lot of bad decisions in our domestic courts. Whether you call Parental Alienation a syndrome, or a disorder, or a dynamic is moot. Ignoring the psychology behind it is not.

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts.

I'm sorry, what was your legal question?

 

[Zigner]

Since Wikipedia appears to be the research tool of choice for father99782, perhaps he should check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation_syndrome

 

[father99782]

Zigner,

The Wikipedia article you chose as your reference seems to focus on Gardner's original formulation of PAS, yet Gardner is dead and gone. There are a number of psychologist and psychiatrists who have updated his work and are fighting for greater acceptance of Parental Alienation, some calling it a syndrome, some a disorder, and some a relational dynamic, but most of them suggesting that there is an underlying psychopathology. It is not simply bad behavior by a bitter ex-spouse.

So, my basic question for the legal experts on this forum is: What is the difference between PAS and PA?

PAS says...

PA says...

Can somebody fill in the ...'s ?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[CSO286]

Zigner,

The Wikipedia article you chose as your reference seems to focus on Gardner's original formulation of PAS, yet Gardner is dead and gone. There are a number of psychologist and psychiatrists who have updated his work and are fighting for greater acceptance of Parental Alienation, some calling it a syndrome, some a disorder, and some a relational dynamic, but most of them suggesting that there is an underlying psychopathology. It is not simply bad behavior by a bitter ex-spouse.

So, my basic question for the legal experts on this forum is: What is the difference between PAS and PA?

PAS says...

PA says...

Can somebody fill in the ...'s ?

Thanks,
Dave

I'm sorry, what was your legal question?

We volunteers give people advice based on their current legal situation. If you wish to engage in a philosophical debate on the validity of PA and/or PAS as is relevant to custody cases, go elsewhere.

 

[single317dad]

Because everything's a dad gummed Syndrome these days. We've redefined normal human behavior as a series of "mental illnesses". Start them young, diagnose the energetic kids with ADHD or the different ones with Autism, then as they grow we can find something else for them as new pills are invented. It's the new normal.

Disclaimer: I know that there are many genuine cases of juvenile Autism and ADHD. I hope those children are being treated properly. Those who disagree with me will see me as attacking those who are genuinely in need of treatment, which is not my intent.

ETA: To answer the question: PA is the action of one parent alienating the child from the other; PAS is the damage the child suffers from those actions.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Hmmmm. I believe we have danced this dance before. Do you re-post the issue every so often?

 

[stealth2]

Where are OP's other 8 posts? These are the only two I can find.... Why is that, father#s?

 

[single317dad]

Where are OP's other 8 posts? These are the only two I can find.... Why is that, father#s?

Most of mine disappeared too, about 2 years ago.

 

[stealth2]

Most of mine disappeared too, about 2 years ago.

Uuummm... Your registration date is 6-7-2011. Same date as your first thread that shows. So... ???

OP's registration is Sept 2011. If your posts from earlier show, I would expect his to, too.

 

[cbg]

A lot of older threads are harder to find nowadays since the software upgrade.

 

[father99782]

Because everything's a dad gummed Syndrome these days. We've redefined normal human behavior as a series of "mental illnesses". Start them young, diagnose the energetic kids with ADHD or the different ones with Autism, then as they grow we can find something else for them as new pills are invented. It's the new normal.

Disclaimer: I know that there are many genuine cases of juvenile Autism and ADHD. I hope those children are being treated properly. Those who disagree with me will see me as attacking those who are genuinely in need of treatment, which is not my intent.

ETA: To answer the question: PA is the action of one parent alienating the child from the other; PAS is the damage the child suffers from those actions.

Single317dad,

Thanks for the reply. I agree that there is tendency in society today to over-medicalize and over-psychologize everything these days. But, as you also stated in you post, despite it being misused and misapplied, sometimes there is a real underlying disorder. I feel like that's the case with Parental Alienation. That is why I'm hoping to gain a better understanding as to why the legal experts on this board say PA is very much real, but PAS is total bunk. Single317dad, you say the difference between PA and PAS is that one refers to the parent and the other refers to the child. If that's the only difference, then why so much controversy? There must be something else. I'm hoping somebody can explain it to me. I'm sorry if my post is not the traditional legal question that is posted on this forum. I'm not trying to be rude or contentious, I'm just hoping to understand why those with a legal background have such a visceral response to the term Parental Alienation Syndrome.

As far as my earlier posts that somebody mentioned, I did ask a different question on the same topic a couple years ago. I don't know why my posts were apparently deleted. I did not delete them.

 

[CSO286]

Single317dad,

Thanks for the reply. I agree that there is tendency in society today to over-medicalize and over-psychologize everything these days. But, as you also stated in you post, despite it being misused and misapplied, sometimes there is a real underlying disorder. I feel like that's the case with Parental Alienation. That is why I'm hoping to gain a better understanding as to why the legal experts on this board say PA is very much real, but PAS is total bunk. Single317dad, you say the difference between PA and PAS is that one refers to the parent and the other refers to the child. If that's the only difference, then why so much controversy? There must be something else. I'm hoping somebody can explain it to me. I'm sorry if my post is not the traditional legal question that is posted on this forum. I'm not trying to be rude or contentious, I'm just hoping to understand why those with a legal background have such a visceral response to the term Parental Alienation Syndrome.

As far as my earlier posts that somebody mentioned, I did ask a different question on the same topic a couple years ago. I don't know why my posts were apparently deleted. I did not delete them.

One is a [quack] diagnosis and the other is a series of actions taken intentionally with the goal of emotionally separating the child and other parent, and making the other parent look bad and making themself appear to be the better parent in the eyes of the child or the courts.

 

[single317dad]

Uuummm... Your registration date is 6-7-2011. Same date as your first thread that shows. So... ???

OP's registration is Sept 2011. If your posts from earlier show, I would expect his to, too.

That is most definitely not my original registration date. I have no idea why the system reports that date. I originally signed up for this account in 2008, and used it mostly in 2008, 2010, and in the last few months. So, maybe inactivity has some role in it.

ETA: My oldest post shown on my profile is from Feb 2013. I've been posting here off and on for almost 5 years though.

 

[father99782]

One is a [quack] diagnosis and the other is a series of actions taken intentionally with the goal of emotionally separating the child and other parent, and making the other parent look bad and making themself appear to be the better parent in the eyes of the child or the courts.

What does PAS claim to be true that PA does not claim to be true? I'm still trying to understand the difference between these two entities. What is it specifically that makes one quackery and the other legitimate? Is it that one claims to be a "diagnosis" and the other is a "series of actions"? Is that the only sticking point?