"Improper Power Of Attorney"

[ecmst12]

That doesn't sound legal and it completely defeats the purpose of having a durable POA in the first place. How can you ask an incompetent person to sign something every time you go to the bank and what would be the point? The signature of someone who doesn't know what's going on is legally meaningless.

 

[globalgiant]

Did the bank accept either Power of Attorney?

My father's attorney told us that many banks refuse to accept a durable Power of Attorney prepared by the account holder's attorney. They instead require that the account holder execute one of their forms. This turned out to be the case in my situation. (I am in California.)

The bank Power of Attorney (prepared by the bank) is very limited. An account holder may have to execute more than one bank-prepared Power of Attorney, each of which authorizes a specific type of transaction.

My father had to sign two bank-prepared Powers of Attorney. Each time we had to make a trip to the bank so that he could sign the bank's form in the presence of one of its employees, who was also a notary.

Perhaps this is an angle you could explore.

My father sent all of the banks a copy of his durable POA, a copy from his attorney saying my uncles POA was not valid, and a letter from my grandfathers primary care physician saying he is incompetent to make legal or financial decisions on his own (enforcing that my uncles POA was signed by somebody who is mentally incompetent). The banks froze my grandpas accounts and my uncles personal accounts that he had transferred money into. My father was granted an emergency conservatorship/guardianship until the hearing is finalized and it still took about two months to unfreeze the accounts. With the delay in getting the accounts unlocked and the bills that my uncle failed to pay while he had financial control, my grandparents assisted living expenses and prescription expenses were over $20,000 past due. That has since been resolved and they are caught up on payments. Not all of the money my uncle took from my grandfathers accounts has been returned, and the local sheriff, police, and social services refuse to pursue any legal action against my uncle. Pretty sickening and disturbing to see stuff like this happen and nobody is penalized or held accountable..

 

[globalgiant]

and it will cost somebody money to deal with this. Lawyers don't work for free and based on your questions, it is going to require the assistance of an attorney.

Since my original post, my father has filed a request for conservator/guardianship power and the court decided to grant him "emergency" powers. The judge also assigned 4 attorneys (guardians for each of the grandparents as well as two others to review financials, etc..). There have been 3 delays in the conservator/guardianship hearing and the costs continue to ad up. We estimate the cost of all attorneys involved (7 total, however 2 stepped down and there are now only 5 including my fathers attorney) is in the neighborhood of $30,000.

Not ONE person throughout this process seems to have any concerns of the following:

1. An attorney hired by my uncle prepared a new POA and Will, and witnessed an obviously mentally incompetent person sign them. (And charged $4k to do so)

2. Two witnesses at the time of the POA signing were care givers at the assisted living home (the POA document specifically states that witnesses cannot be care-givers).

3. My uncle entered my fathers home without permission to get possession of a safety deposit box key (not sure if anything else was taken, and no physical proof that he entered the home other than the fact that it is the only way he could get the key that is now missing).

4. My uncle emptied my grandfathers safety deposit box which contained stock certificates, life insurance documents, and $80-100K worth of jewelry.

5. My uncle emptied all funds from my grandfathers accounts and deposited in his own personal accounts (no joint accounts).

6. My uncle failed to pay ANY bills for over 3 months while he had control of funds.

7. There is still several thousand dollars of my grandfathers funds that have not been returned.

8. A court appointed guardian (an attorney) who has access to the conservator/guardianship case shared my fathers personal financial information (bank account numbers and balances) with my uncles.

Note: By "uncles" I am referring to two brothers, one of which lives over 1000 miles northwest, and the other over 1000 miles east of my grandparents location. The uncle being discussed here filed a conservator request for my grandmother only, about a month ago, and another conservator request for my grandfather several days ago. The other uncle filed a guardianship request for my grandma only, several weeks ago, and another guardianship request for my grandfather several days ago. He has also stated that his intentions are to move my grandparents to a facility near him.

There is speculation that the attorney who has been appointed temporary guardian for my grandma has been advising at least one of the uncles. There has been information shared that is evidence of this (my fathers financial info being some of it).

Also, the "new" Will that my uncles attorney prepared listed my uncle as executor, and effectively wrote my grandma out of any inheritance. This is not even legal in CO so we are all curious as to why the attorney would have even prepared a Will in that manner. Assets are automatically transferred to the spouse in CO. So to recap, first my uncle writes my grandma out of the Will, months later he files a request to be only a conservator for her, then a month later files a request to be a conservator for my grandpa. I do not know much about law, but I cannot imagine any attorney advising his client that this in any way is proper or makes any sense whatsoever..

 

[mtpockets]

Not incompetent

That doesn't sound legal and it completely defeats the purpose of having a durable POA in the first place. How can you ask an incompetent person to sign something every time you go to the bank and what would be the point? The signature of someone who doesn't know what's going on is legally meaningless.

He was not incompetent. He gave me Power of Attorney so that I could do the running around.

 

[ecmst12]

Ok, but the point still stands. The purpose of a durable POA is to allow the POA to act as that person in financial and/or medical matters, whether for convenience or (more importantly) in case of incapacitation. Continuing to require additional signatures besides the one on the POA should absolutely not be allowed and I don't know why you went along with it. UNLESS maybe the POA was worded incorrectly or something.

 

[mtpockets]

Advice of counsel

Ok, but the point still stands. The purpose of a durable POA is to allow the POA to act as that person in financial and/or medical matters, whether for convenience or (more importantly) in case of incapacitation. Continuing to require additional signatures besides the one on the POA should absolutely not be allowed and I don't know why you went along with it. UNLESS maybe the POA was worded incorrectly or something.

My father's attorney told us that banks routinely refuse to accept POA's. So the POA prepared by the attorney, and the POA prepared by the bank, were both created and signed at about the same time. My father went along with this as it seemed to be the easiest way to make it possible for me to make sure his bills got paid, run his errands, arrange for repairs to his house, etc.

 

[anteater]

My father's attorney told us that banks routinely refuse to accept POA's. So the POA prepared by the attorney, and the POA prepared by the bank, were both created and signed at about the same time. My father went along with this as it seemed to be the easiest way to make it possible for me to make sure his bills got paid, run his errands, arrange for repairs to his house, etc.

In theory, financial institutions should accept POA's that conform to state statutes. And most states have statutes that hold third parties harmless for accepting POA's that, on the face of it, seem to be valid.

But that is theory. At the end of the day, you either spend time and money forcing the financial institution to accept the POA or you do what the financial institution wants.

 

[TheGeekess]

My father's attorney told us that banks routinely refuse to accept POA's. So the POA prepared by the attorney, and the POA prepared by the bank, were both created and signed at about the same time. My father went along with this as it seemed to be the easiest way to make it possible for me to make sure his bills got paid, run his errands, arrange for repairs to his house, etc.

Congratulations. You've successfully hijacked someone else's post.

 

[justalayman]

Congratulations. You've successfully hijacked someone else's post.

either that or the OP is posting under multiple user names. The responses from mtwhatever are responding to questions directed to the OP but the responses appear to be a continuation of the original situation.

 

[ecmst12]

No it doesn't. MT's situation is completely different and unrelated to OP's, and I agree that his input wasn't even useful.

 

[justalayman]

No it doesn't. MT's situation is completely different and unrelated to OP's, and I agree that his input wasn't even useful.

I see what happened now.



It appears YOU were the hijacker in this thread. mtwhatever spoke to the OP using their own situation as an example. You then responded to mtwhatever's posts questioning the legality of the actions in mtwhatever's situation and as such initiated a conversation about mtwhatevers situation. Then mtwhatever responded to YOUR questions regarding their own situation.

antie responded to mtwhatever's post but it was simply as explanation of the statement which is directly related to the OP's post. the Geekess then misunderstood and posted what she did not realizing you had already hijacked the thread previously.

I guess we know the real problem now; ecmst12

have a great day

 

[ecmst12]

Whatever you say. Next time someone posts something wrong or irrelevant or misleading in someone else thread I guess we should all ignore it and not correct or question it. Because you are the ultimate authority on what's ok to post and what isn't.

Oh wait, you're not. Get over yourself.

 

[justalayman]

Whatever you say. Next time someone posts something wrong or irrelevant or misleading in someone else thread I guess we should all ignore it and not correct or question it. Because you are the ultimate authority on what's ok to post and what isn't.

Oh wait, you're not. Get over yourself.

mtwhatever posted what had actually happened to them which is what you took issue with. It wasn't that it was correct or not due to the fact it was in fact a fact and as such, indisputable.

It was offered as a suggestion of an angle to investigate while you took it as an absolute solution to the issue. It was not offered as such but rather than making a statement that it does not fit the circumstances or anything else of the sort, you decided to argue about what happened in mtwhatever's situation as being innappropriate for their situation.


having a hard time admitting you are wrong?

 

[ecmst12]

Not when I'm actually wrong. Unlike some people. But now you're the one hijacking.

 

[justalayman]

Not when I'm actually wrong. Unlike some people. But now you're the one hijacking.

so, go ahead and admit it because in this situation, you are wrong. Want to claim to be the bigger person? Prove it.


and yes, I admit to continuing your hijack.