Clarification on Abandonment

[Mystic001]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I have a question regarding abandonment. I had a situation where the tenant went into an ALF for the last couple months. She has a payee and case workers. The rent was current. The case worker shut off the electric to the unit and now there is mold or mildew growing in the carpet and maggots in the refrigerator. The apartment was not in great hygienic condition to start with and this allowed everything to bloom, literally.

When I found out that the electric was off after entering with pest control, I notified my supervisor and called the case manager and informed them that the unit could not be without electric and that they needed to turn the electric back on or give back the keys, at which case I would consider the unit vacated.

I kept getting the run-around from the case manager(s) and we turned the electric back on in our name in the meantime. Case management was stating "oh, she moved out, that's why we turned off the electric," but that they had a few more personal effects of the tenant's that she was requesting.

My supervisor was telling me that we could change the locks since the tenant had abandoned the unit and had not been in it for 2 months. I said to her that we had to still determine abandonment by sending her a letter or something like that. The rent is still current and not late until the 5th of July (I think that makes a difference).

I'm googling and I'm seeing that 83.59 Right of action for possession states:

(3) The landlord shall not recover possession of a dwelling unit except:
(c) When the tenant has abandoned the dwelling unit. In the absence of actual knowledge of abandonment, it shall be presumed that the tenant has abandoned the dwelling unit if he or she is absent from the premises for a period of time equal to one-half the time for periodic rental payments. However, this presumption does not apply if the rent is current or the tenant has notified the landlord, in writing, of an intended absence;

If we have actual knowledge of abandonment, then does that negate having to send letter or filing for possession? I think my supervisor was wrong and we would have to send a letter at least before changing locks and disposing of property.

I DID get the keys back today and the place is really bad. So the question is moot, however, I'd still like to know if we would have had to allow things to get worse in the unit to take the time to send a letter or even file for possession? (I'm reading somewhere that if the property is more then $500 then you have to file for possession, but that if the property is less then $500 then just a letter..?)

I'm just trying to understand a little better since it's a bit complicated and the tenant was living somewhere else and the keys were held by a third party. Any held understanding is appreciated. Never want to do the wrong thing and if my supervisor was really going to change the locks I would have advised running this by the lawyer. This is a HUD subsidized property.

Thank you for any help!

 

[BL]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I have a question regarding abandonment. I had a situation where the tenant went into an ALF for the last couple months. She has a payee and case workers. The rent was current. The case worker shut off the electric to the unit and now there is mold or mildew growing in the carpet and maggots in the refrigerator. The apartment was not in great hygienic condition to start with and this allowed everything to bloom, literally.

When I found out that the electric was off after entering with pest control, I notified my supervisor and called the case manager and informed them that the unit could not be without electric and that they needed to turn the electric back on or give back the keys, at which case I would consider the unit vacated.

I kept getting the run-around from the case manager(s) and we turned the electric back on in our name in the meantime. Case management was stating "oh, she moved out, that's why we turned off the electric," but that they had a few more personal effects of the tenant's that she was requesting.

My supervisor was telling me that we could change the locks since the tenant had abandoned the unit and had not been in it for 2 months. I said to her that we had to still determine abandonment by sending her a letter or something like that. The rent is still current and not late until the 5th of July (I think that makes a difference).

I'm googling and I'm seeing that 83.59 Right of action for possession states:

(3) The landlord shall not recover possession of a dwelling unit except:
(c) When the tenant has abandoned the dwelling unit. In the absence of actual knowledge of abandonment, it shall be presumed that the tenant has abandoned the dwelling unit if he or she is absent from the premises for a period of time equal to one-half the time for periodic rental payments. However, this presumption does not apply if the rent is current or the tenant has notified the landlord, in writing, of an intended absence;

If we have actual knowledge of abandonment, then does that negate having to send letter or filing for possession? I think my supervisor was wrong and we would have to send a letter at least before changing locks and disposing of property.

I DID get the keys back today and the place is really bad. So the question is moot, however, I'd still like to know if we would have had to allow things to get worse in the unit to take the time to send a letter or even file for possession? (I'm reading somewhere that if the property is more then $500 then you have to file for possession, but that if the property is less then $500 then just a letter..?)

I'm just trying to understand a little better since it's a bit complicated and the tenant was living somewhere else and the keys were held by a third party. Any held understanding is appreciated. Never want to do the wrong thing and if my supervisor was really going to change the locks I would have advised running this by the lawyer. This is a HUD subsidized property.

Thank you for any help!

Why isn't your supervisor handling this ?

Where is your properties lawyer ?

 

[FarmerJ]

By your own description id say the tenant abandoned this unit beside the fact that they caused waste ( damage ) if you only work for them then id say this tenant cannot sue you personally d suggest seeing if you can get the date the power was turned off into writing from the elect co, and then photo time, Tons and tons of then to show every thing that has become damaged so this former tenant can be more easily sued. If you are instructed to throw out this former tenants things take pics then list them on paper & if they too are in bad shape , broken. After all even if your just a employee you would have a record of what was left and the things condition.

 

[BL]

By your own description id say the tenant abandoned this unit beside the fact that they caused waste ( damage ) if you only work for them then id say this tenant cannot sue you personally d suggest seeing if you can get the date the power was turned off into writing from the elect co, and then photo time, Tons and tons of then to show every thing that has become damaged so this former tenant can be more easily sued. If you are instructed to throw out this former tenants things take pics then list them on paper & if they too are in bad shape , broken. After all even if your just a employee you would have a record of what was left and the things condition.

I would be very careful of that for the poster.

It could lead to criminal charges.

Again, I emphasize let the supervisor. Their lawyer and others take care of the matter.

I realize the keys have been turned in , but "they" need a letter of confirmation of the vacancy and follow the law on left property.

Perhaps local law enforcement may know first off.

 

[Mystic001]

Why isn't your supervisor handling this ?

Where is your properties lawyer ?

My supervisor is not handling this because she is supervisor for multiple properties and literally has no time. My title is rental agent but I am the ONLY employee for this property and so handle most of the tasks that would be handled by a property manager. It's just me here.
The only things I don't do are sending paperwork off to the service bureau and pay bills, some of the bookwork, ect.. (there's a bookkeeper for all properties off site).

The only time I see the lawyer is when we're terminating a lease and the tenant goes to get their free legal services and complains to HUD. The lawyer then has us rescind the termination. Almost always. This housing is subsidized for disabled (mentally ill), so apparently judges tend to favor the tenant retaining housing no matter how clearly they have violated the lease repeatedly. Barring certain things like non-payment or unauthorized occupants. Again, this is a small property (24 units) but it is a lot of work for one person.

I wish I could just let others handle it, but it's all on me. I'm not concerned at this point that the tenant will want anything out of the apartment. She is very advanced in age and cannot live independently any longer. There was nothing of value left in the unit. I was just in there cleaning it out with maintenance (yes, I really do everything). Case management were the one's who would be held responsible if there was something still in the unit that the previous tenant wanted, (it is understood that the return of the keys means that the unit has been officially vacated), but it really doesn't appear that there is anything in there.

By your own description id say the tenant abandoned this unit beside the fact that they caused waste ( damage ) if you only work for them then id say this tenant cannot sue you personally d suggest seeing if you can get the date the power was turned off into writing from the elect co, and then photo time, Tons and tons of then to show every thing that has become damaged so this former tenant can be more easily sued. If you are instructed to throw out this former tenants things take pics then list them on paper & if they too are in bad shape , broken. After all even if your just a employee you would have a record of what was left and the things condition.

I did take pictures, mainly to show the damage. The bookkeeper will send a letter of security deposit holding and damage charges to the tenant, but if she doesn't pay, we do not take them to court for a judgement.

I would be very careful of that for the poster.

It could lead to criminal charges.

Again, I emphasize let the supervisor. Their lawyer and others take care of the matter.

I realize the keys have been turned in , but "they" need a letter of confirmation of the vacancy and follow the law on left property.

Perhaps local law enforcement may know first off.

There was a 30 day notice signed by the tenant signaling intent to vacate and with the keys being surrendered, I feel fairly comfortable. The tenant is aware of everything. BUT, if I had not gotten the keys, then I certainly would not have taken any action without consulting the lawyer. And the responses here verified my understanding that there would need to be other action taken before we could "just change the locks" even with the knowledge that the tenant was not coming back... So thank you.

 

[DeenaCA]

Unless you are describing a traditional public housing project, the development most likely falls under one of HUD's "multifamily" programs. The owner/agent/manager is required to comply with HUD regulations in addition to state and/or local landlord-tenant law. The HUD rules for the various subsidy programs are explained in HUD Handbook 4350.3, available online at http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=DOC_35639.pdf.

For example, there is a section in Chapter 6 of the handbook on extended absence and abandonment. You might have handled this situation differently had you been provided with training or resources describing the owner's responsibilities to HUD.

My supervisor is not handling this because she is supervisor for multiple properties and literally has no time. My title is rental agent but I am the ONLY employee for this property and so handle most of the tasks that would be handled by a property manager. It's just me here.

It's not fair to you, the residents, or ultimately the owner to expect you to administer a regulation-laden HUD program without training or guidance. The owner runs a risk of fines or other unpleasant HUD sanctions if the rules are violated. Mistakes can be quite costly, and the owner is liable for actions of the management staff.

I'd recommend that you request the training you need for the duties you're required to perform. Google "HUD multifamily occupancy training".

 

[Mystic001]

Unless you are describing a traditional public housing project, the development most likely falls under one of HUD's "multifamily" programs. The owner/agent/manager is required to comply with HUD regulations in addition to state and/or local landlord-tenant law. The HUD rules for the various subsidy programs are explained in HUD Handbook 4350.3, available online at

For example, there is a section in Chapter 6 of the handbook on extended absence and abandonment. You might have handled this situation differently had you been provided with training or resources describing the owner's responsibilities to HUD.



It's not fair to you, the residents, or ultimately the owner to expect you to administer a regulation-laden HUD program without training or guidance. The owner runs a risk of fines or other unpleasant HUD sanctions if the rules are violated. Mistakes can be quite costly, and the owner is liable for actions of the management staff.

I'd recommend that you request the training you need for the duties you're required to perform. Google "HUD multifamily occupancy training".

Note: trying this post again with removal of the link. It gave me some moderator approval message and I think it's because of it. My apologies if this posts twice.

Hi Deena,

Yes, I receive HUD occupancy training a minimum of every other year it seems, as well as other training specific to the project. We're PRAC 811. I have the handbook that you posted the link for, I looked at your link to see if there was something different in there then my handbook, but they're the same. I receive a fair amount of training, but of course, there is a lot to cover and I'm still learning 6 years in. Plus, attending HUD training, they cover all projects (not PRAC 811 specific) and sometimes spend a lot of time on things that I am not responsible for (for example EIV, which the bookkeeper does).

All that the handbook says on abandonment is this:


"2. Extended absence or abandonment
. As part of a property’s house rules,
owners may establish rules specifying when tenants give up their right to
occupancy because of their extended absence or abandonment of the
unit. Under these rules, owners may initiate action to terminate tenancy
in response to an extended absence or abandonment of the unit by the
tenant or individual listed on the lease for that unit.
NOTE:
Abandonment is distinguished from an absence from the unit by
the tenant’s failure to pay the rent due for the unit and failure to
acknowledge or respond to notices from the owner regarding the overdue
rent.
a. Owner discretion
. The decision to establish rules regarding
extended absence or abandonment of a unit as part of a
property’s house rules rests solely with the owner.
b. Requirements and guidelines
. If owners elect to establish such
rules, they must be consistent with the requirements and
guidelines listed below:
(1) Rules regarding extended absence and abandonment
must be consistent with state and local law.
(2) Guidelines for rules regarding extended absence from a
unit
. Owners may establish a house rule defining
extended absence as the tenant being absent from the unit
for longer than 60 continuous days, or for longer than 180
continuous days for medical reasons. Owners may allow
exceptions for extenuating circumstances.
(3) Guidelines for abandonment of a unit
. If abandonment of a
rental unit is not addressed by state or local law, owners
may establish a rule for declaring a unit abandoned. Rules
regarding abandonment must be consistent with state and
local law regarding nonpayment of rent, specify the actions
that the owner will take to contact the tenant, and describe
the handling and disposition or any tenant possessions left
in the unit. "

So it does not cover exact procedure before declaring a unit abandoned; says to follow local/state laws and refer to owner guides. Our procedure manual is silent on abandonment so that's why I googled local laws and posted the question here. From everything I'm reading and some of the answers here, I would say that if in the future the issue arises again; we're safe with sending a certified letter to the tenant and giving them time to respond (this is with the scenario that the rent is not paid and there is reasonable belief that the tenant has vacated). Of course, in other scenarios it would be a regular 3 day notice and then filing for possession.

 

[BL]

What generally happens in my area ( not State specific to yours ) , is upon termination. In your case personal or listed contacts ,will be attempted notification and have a certain amount of time to pick up tenant's property.

After that time has expired , the property personal can dispose of the belongings.

So what has the tenants case manger or contact said about the items , as the the keys have been turned in by them?

 

[Mystic001]

What generally happens in my area ( not State specific to yours ) , is upon termination. In your case personal or listed contacts ,will be attempted notification and have a certain amount of time to pick up tenant's property.

After that time has expired , the property personal can dispose of the belongings.

So what has the tenants case manger or contact said about the items , as the the keys have been turned in by them?

They came with masks and gloves (as I had advised them of the condition of the unit) and spent about a half hour removing the things that the tenant had requested before handing all keys to me. They had come several times before so this was a final sweep. They left everything not wanted including the furniture for us to dispose of. Even the tenant's cat had been let outside by them (they had taken over care and feeding) and left for me to deal with.

What did they say specifically? That the unit wasn't "that bad" and that here's the keys and they removed the items that the tenant was requesting. I don't know what planet they're from, but when I entered with maintenance it was horrific. They had the nerve to tell me I should not have the cat taken to the humane society because he might be put to sleep. "Oh, I'm sorry, am I not cleaning up the mess you left me to your liking??"

Sorry, this has turned into a vent; not my original purpose...but damn, it feels good.

 

[BL]

They came with masks and gloves (as I had advised them of the condition of the unit) and spent about a half hour removing the things that the tenant had requested before handing all keys to me. They had come several times before so this was a final sweep. They left everything not wanted including the furniture for us to dispose of. Even the tenant's cat had been let outside by them (they had taken over care and feeding) and left for me to deal with.

What did they say specifically? That the unit wasn't "that bad" and that here's the keys and they removed the items that the tenant was requesting. I don't know what planet they're from, but when I entered with maintenance it was horrific. They had the nerve to tell me I should not have the cat taken to the humane society because he might be put to sleep. "Oh, I'm sorry, am I not cleaning up the mess you left me to your liking??"

Sorry, this has turned into a vent; not my original purpose...but damn, it feels good.

So get on with cleanup and re-rental...

Yeh , it sounds like a real vent and your dislike of the " mentally Ill " and perhaps your personal discrimination of the tenants.

A JOB & a PAYCHECK.

Have at it , you'll retire someday..

 

[DeenaCA]

I would say that if in the future the issue arises again; we're safe with sending a certified letter to the tenant and giving them time to respond

Since you work with clients with disabilities, any procedures dictated by state law or owner policy are subject to reasonable accommodations as required by the federal Fair Housing Act. Accommodations might include, for example, permitting an extended absence of up to 6 months if the absence is due to the disability. Rent adjustments might have to be made if the resident's benefits are temporarily diverted to a facility rather than the resident. Or a resident might require the services of a daily caregiver or a live-in aide during tenancy.

I did find the content and tone of your posts troubling, and assumed (wrongly) that they might indicate a lack of training. The scenario you described is not uncommon and will probably occur on a regular basis.

She is very advanced in age and cannot live independently any longer.

A person's inability to live independently is no longer a ticket to an institution. In fact, housing providers have not been able to legally impose such a requirement for many years. Community-based housing opportunities and supportive services for persons with disabilities are mandated under the Olmstead decision (http://www.pacer.org/tatra/legislation/olmstead_062299.asp) and are implemented under programs including the New Freedom Initiative (http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/disabilities/eorder13217.cfm) and Money Follows the Person (http://medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Long-Term-Services-and-Support/Balancing/Money-Follows-the-Person.html).

 

[BL]

Since you work with clients with disabilities, any procedures dictated by state law or owner policy are subject to reasonable accommodations as required by the federal Fair Housing Act. Accommodations might include, for example, permitting an extended absence of up to 6 months if the absence is due to the disability. Rent adjustments might have to be made if the resident's benefits are temporarily diverted to a facility rather than the resident. Or a resident might require the services of a daily caregiver or a live-in aide during tenancy.

I did find the content and tone of your posts troubling, and assumed (wrongly) that they might indicate a lack of training. The scenario you described is not uncommon and will probably occur on a regular basis.



A person's inability to live independently is no longer a ticket to an institution. In fact, housing providers have not been able to legally impose such a requirement for many years. Community-based housing opportunities and supportive services for persons with disabilities are mandated under the Olmstead decision (http://www.pacer.org/tatra/legislation/olmstead_062299.asp) and are implemented under programs including the New Freedom Initiative (http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/disabilities/eorder13217.cfm) and Money Follows the Person (http://medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Long-Term-Services-and-Support/Balancing/Money-Follows-the-Person.html).

I like your knowledge ..

 

[Mystic001]

So get on with cleanup and re-rental...

Yeh , it sounds like a real vent and your dislike of the " mentally Ill " and perhaps your personal discrimination of the tenants.

A JOB & a PAYCHECK.

Have at it , you'll retire someday..

Hi BL,

My vent was directed at case management services, not my tenant! I’m not sure where you’re getting that I have a dislike of the mentally ill or am discriminatory towards my tenants. I end up being a greater advocate for them then certain services that should be able to do more for them. I routinely do things for them that certainly aren’t in my job description…but promote wellness and a sense of stability.

I actually love my job and find it personally fulfilling.

Since you work with clients with disabilities, any procedures dictated by state law or owner policy are subject to reasonable accommodations as required by the federal Fair Housing Act. Accommodations might include, for example, permitting an extended absence of up to 6 months if the absence is due to the disability. Rent adjustments might have to be made if the resident's benefits are temporarily diverted to a facility rather than the resident. Or a resident might require the services of a daily caregiver or a live-in aide during tenancy.

I did find the content and tone of your posts troubling, and assumed (wrongly) that they might indicate a lack of training. The scenario you described is not uncommon and will probably occur on a regular basis.



A person's inability to live independently is no longer a ticket to an institution. In fact, housing providers have not been able to legally impose such a requirement for many years. Community-based housing opportunities and supportive services for persons with disabilities are mandated under the Olmstead decision and are implemented under programs including the New Freedom Initiative and Money Follows the Person .

Hi Deena,

Yes, no problem, I could see where you could make that assumption not knowing all the facts (which is not your fault; one cannot give a complete history and totality of the situation in a paragraph but I will attempt to explain further below).

Yes, I’m very familiar with reasonable accommodations. They’re quite common here due to the makeup of the tenants. You’re right about the scenario occurring often although the difference in this scenario was the lack of communication and common sense from case management. It totally was not the tenant’s fault.

I apologize if I gave anyone here that impression, for it’s certainly not true.

In regards to ability to live independently, I’m very well aware how high the bar is to have someone committed. In the case of this particular tenant, it was not really her age but just general physical inability. To explain, even with daily visits from case management and a medical team, emergency services were responding to her apartment 2 or 3 times a week at minimum as her physical health was deteriorating rapidly and when she was taking prescribed medication she was falling in the shower and doing things like causing fires because she left the burners on. Or not being able to get off the couch to turn off the heat and just had to suffer until I checked on her. She did have a wheel chair and we installed a ramp, grab bars in the shower and some other reasonable accommodations during this time period, but she was increasingly a danger to herself and other tenants (in case of fire). Case management services got DCF and HRS involved because she was resistant to going into a more assisted living facility (and frankly, I couldn’t blame her as who wants to give up their apartment and independence?). Every step was taken to continue to allow her to live independently…medical team did not allow her to administer her own medication, they came at least twice a day, they unplugged the stove (had to check with HUD first!) so that she couldn’t cause anymore fires and case management actually started being present when she bathed.

DCF came back after their evaluation and stated that she could still live on her own, which surprised everyone involved, particularly emergency services who stated they were going to file some paper that would allow them not to respond to her apartment anymore (not sure what that’s all about).

I don’t know what happened in the end, but on this last hospital visit she went into a physical therapy rehabilitation center and from there into an ALF. I am not privy to the nature of her medical conditions but thankfully from what I heard from other tenants who visited, she loves it there as apparently the food is good and there are lots of activities.

I wouldn’t have gone so in depth about the circumstances, but I felt I needed to clarify.
You mentioned a live in aide; which I wonder if that would have allowed her to allow to live independently a little while longer…a few residents have something similar to that, I’m not sure why she would not qualify or if Medicaid would not cover it.

I thank you for your time and you’ve given me something to think about! I'm going to read up on your links... You do sound very knowledgeable about fair housing…I will keep you in mind the next time I have a question!