Traffic Control Devices on Private Property

[zowensby]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

Arizona (Yavapai County)


Hello,

I have a question about traffic control devices on private property. This is apparently an issue with strong legal arguments on both sides...

My property owners association has announced that they will be installing 4-way stop signs at an intersection. Our community is in a rural area, considered private property, has coded gates at all entrances, and no surrounding traffic is able to use the roads as a shortcut. The intersection originally had such stop signs a few years ago, but were replaced with yield signs on two directions of travel due to the increased complaints by property owners. The current POA Board has stated the reason for this pending change is because of speeding, near accidents, and their legal responsibility to the community. They have further consulted with a lawyer and the local sheriffs department, stating that violations will be issued by an increase in law enforcement patrol.

From what I have researched so far, a failure to obey a stop sign ticket would not hold up in court because it was on private property and did not conform to uniformed traffic code. A police officer would only legally be able write a ticket if there was reckless driving, drunk driving, failure to control vehicle in an accident, etc. Also, if this was a municipal area, the volume of traffic, clear visibility in a wide open space, and more would not support such 4-way stop signs per the Manual on Uniformed Traffic Control Devices. With such standards, the current 25 MPH speed limit would also be increased per the 85th percentile guidelines to more like 35-40 MPH, which is much more reasonable for the conditions.

So, what are your views on this situation? Does anyone have any suggestions on where I might look for the exact laws that would pertain to this? Such questions on this issue usually involve stop signs in a mall parking lot or other private property within a municipality, but I have read nothing about county areas.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

 

[HighwayMan]

and did not conform to uniformed traffic code...

What didn't conform? The ticket? The sign?

 

[zowensby]

What didn't conform? The ticket? The sign?

There was no ticket, HA, yet. My situation concerns an HOA who has made the decision to place four-way stop signs essentially at a county crossroads where the closest home is 500 feet away and desert landscaping providing clear visibility for up to a mile in all directions. Because it is a private community, any traffic sign guidelines that a municipality might have to abide by are absent. I am just trying to get a feel for how to fight this issue when the argument comes down to legalities, as the "what happens if someone gets into an accident and sues us" fear seems to be the biggest motivator. I have quite a bit of data from the Institute of Transportation Engineers, the Manual of Uniformed Traffic Control Devices, and more showing how inefficient on safety stop signs are in such a setting.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Don't know if this will be helpful, however, some states have laws requiring a certain minimum traffic flow to justify placement of stop signs. This is due to situations similar to this where gov't entities go overboard with them as a means of generating ticket revenue from "running stops".

 

[HighwayMan]

From what I have researched so far, a failure to obey a stop sign ticket would not hold up in court because it was on private property and did not conform to uniformed traffic code.

Are you sure? In many (probably most) states roadways that are open to public motor vehicle traffic make drivers subject to enforcement of state traffic laws despite the fact that the property is "private".

What about these signs does not conform?

 

[zowensby]

Are you sure? In many (probably most) states roadways that are open to public motor vehicle traffic make drivers subject to enforcement of state traffic laws despite the fact that the property is "private".

What about these signs does not conform?

The stop signs are not up yet, but they will be privately purchased and unless the County takes responsibility for the roads and more (extremely unlikely), will not be authorized as a public traffic control device. Unfortunately, I have not found the exact legal statute that can be used for this, but all the local police officers and other people involved with the court system that I know have stated such (as their opinion). Once again, I know a fair amount about public traffic law and traffic engineering, but admit that I am relatively clueless when it comes to private land in county area.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

 

[Zigner]

The stop signs are not up yet, but they will be privately purchased and unless the County takes responsibility for the roads and more (extremely unlikely), will not be authorized as a public traffic control device. Unfortunately, I have not found the exact legal statute that can be used for this, but all the local police officers and other people involved with the court system that I know have stated such (as their opinion). Once again, I know a fair amount about public traffic law and traffic engineering, but admit that I am relatively clueless when it comes to private land in county area.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

Why do you keep dodging the question. Other than your opinion that the signs can't be enforced, what about them makes you think they won't be valid traffic control devices?

 

[zowensby]

Why do you keep dodging the question. Other than your opinion that the signs can't be enforced, what about them makes you think they won't be valid traffic control devices?

I don't believe that I am dodging the question...

As stated, I have not discovered the legal statute for this yet, but all the local police officers that I have spoken with to court employees who have witnessed similar cases have stated that unless such stop signs are endorsed by a city, county, or state and/or are on public roadways in Arizona, that such signs are not authorized and can be thrown out of court. Yup, it is hearsay information currently and one of the things that I am trying to do is turn it into fact.

So far all of this is just if a ticket were to be written. I am also investigating if the legal liability concerns by the HOA are valid for NOT putting up stop signs. I argue that even though this is private property, that the public is still allowed to travel on the roads, therefore due diligence should be used in conforming the roads to what is found elsewhere in the USA. The Manual of Uniformed Traffic Control Devices is the hallmark of that and indicates that stop signs are NOT warranted in this case. Other study suggests that the risk of an accident could be increased with such improper traffic signage.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

 

[Zigner]

I don't believe that I am dodging the question...

As stated, I have not discovered the legal statute for this yet, but all the local police officers that I have spoken with to court employees who have witnessed similar cases have stated that unless such stop signs are endorsed by a city, county, or state and/or are on public roadways in Arizona, that such signs are not authorized and can be thrown out of court. Yup, it is hearsay information currently and one of the things that I am trying to do is turn it into fact.

So far all of this is just if a ticket were to be written. I am also investigating if the legal liability concerns by the HOA are valid for NOT putting up stop signs. I argue that even though this is private property, that the public is still allowed to travel on the roads, therefore due diligence should be used in conforming the roads to what is found elsewhere in the USA. The Manual of Uniformed Traffic Control Devices is the hallmark of that and indicates that stop signs are NOT warranted in this case. Other study suggests that the risk of an accident could be increased with such improper traffic signage.


Thanks,
Dr. Z.

You previously implied that the signs themselves weren't going to conform. What you meant was that the placement of the signs won't.

 

[zowensby]

You previously implied that the signs themselves weren't going to conform. What you meant was that the placement of the signs won't.

Sorry, I guess that I really need to elaborate here...

Traffic control devices privately purchased and installed on private property are not authorized by any local city, county, or state that I can find. All I have are two police officers and three court employees who state this detail, but no actual legal reference to site yet. I have also been told that if they were officially authorized, then a regulation label of some sort would indicate such. Sure, a private vs. publicly authorized sign may be the exact same dimensions and more, but unless it has the approval of the DOT, it is just decoration.

Once again, I am trying to find the legal reference to back up this hearsay and more...


Thanks,
Dr. Z.