Car Search

[CSO286]

I wonder why you refuse to clarify...

*jumping up and down, waving hand in air*

OOH!!!
ooh!!

Pick me!! Pick me!! I know why!!!

 

[swalsh411]

I wonder why you refuse to clarify...

Regardless of whether or not they have something to hide, most people wouldn't want their car searched, so I don't see how that is particually relevant here.

 

[derpa]

And there's no rule that says the school MUST issue you a parking permit.

Yeah I guess. It just seems kind of rude to revoke one they already issued without cause

*jumping up and down, waving hand in air*

OOH!!!
ooh!!

Pick me!! Pick me!! I know why!!!

Don't stop there. Tell everybody.

Regardless of whether or not they have something to hide, most people wouldn't want their car searched, so I don't see how that is particually relevant here.

Hey you're smart.

 

[tranquility]

Yeah I guess. It just seems kind of rude to revoke one they already issued without cause.

Except, you and I both know it was with cause.

In the afternoon an Asst Principal came to me and said he wanted to search my car. I said no. He said, it's on school property and he can search. I told him it's not on school property. He made me go with him and we both saw that it wasn't there.

They clearly had reason to believe you had something in your vehicle you were not supposed to. They didn't want to search it because of the oddity of parking the vehicle off the school as they didn't know you did that. They wanted to search it for another reason. They had to have a reasonable suspicion or were following a known search policy to search your vehicle. That is, they had some reason to believe you had something in your vehicle that would be against school rules or that would be otherwise illegal. Personally, I think you thought you had a clever way to prevent that by parking off the property. You were right.

Legally, only the police could then search your vehicle as school officials no longer had the power.

While the vice principal, who is actually a very busy man and who doesn't have a lot of time for rubbish, believed this too; he knew he could not punish you by suspension or detention (as you did not violate school rules), so he decided to remove a privilege for your lack of cooperation. He did things exactly right. He tried to eliminate a problem at the school but found the laws prevented him from doing so. So, he made it clear such nonsense is not allowed by removing something you have no "right" to have. Fair warning, I suspect the next time you do this (Unless the search was just a random one under school policy and not by reasonable suspicion.) you might find the police are the ones with the reasonable suspicion and not the VP.

 

[LdiJ]

Except, you and I both know it was with cause.
They clearly had reason to believe you had something in your vehicle you were not supposed to. They didn't want to search it because of the oddity of parking the vehicle off the school as they didn't know you did that. They wanted to search it for another reason. They had to have a reasonable suspicion or were following a known search policy to search your vehicle. That is, they had some reason to believe you had something in your vehicle that would be against school rules or that would be otherwise illegal. Personally, I think you thought you had a clever way to prevent that by parking off the property. You were right.

Legally, only the police could then search your vehicle as school officials no longer had the power.

While the vice principal, who is actually a very busy man and who doesn't have a lot of time for rubbish, believed this too; he knew he could not punish you by suspension or detention (as you did not violate school rules), so he decided to remove a privilege for your lack of cooperation. He did things exactly right. He tried to eliminate a problem at the school but found the laws prevented him from doing so. So, he made it clear such nonsense is not allowed by removing something you have no "right" to have. Fair warning, I suspect the next time you do this (Unless the search was just a random one under school policy and not by reasonable suspicion.) you might find the police are the ones with the reasonable suspicion and not the VP.

I will make one proviso to that....

There are school systems across the country who have stopped providing bus service to students. The courts in many of those areas are challenging those school systems on the issue. I suspect that if a school system that was not providing bus service attempted to revoke a parking pass for a student because the student refused to agree to an illegal search was one of those school systems, in one of those areas, they might find themselves in a pickle.

And of course the police cannot search a vehicle that is legally parked on the street without something more than just a VP's suspicion that something untoward might be in the car. The police have to see something or smell something, or have a warrant to do such a search.

 

[derpa]

Except, you and I both know it was with cause.
They clearly had reason to believe you had something in your vehicle you were not supposed to. They didn't want to search it because of the oddity of parking the vehicle off the school as they didn't know you did that. They wanted to search it for another reason. They had to have a reasonable suspicion or were following a known search policy to search your vehicle. That is, they had some reason to believe you had something in your vehicle that would be against school rules or that would be otherwise illegal. Personally, I think you thought you had a clever way to prevent that by parking off the property. You were right.

Legally, only the police could then search your vehicle as school officials no longer had the power.

While the vice principal, who is actually a very busy man and who doesn't have a lot of time for rubbish, believed this too; he knew he could not punish you by suspension or detention (as you did not violate school rules), so he decided to remove a privilege for your lack of cooperation. He did things exactly right. He tried to eliminate a problem at the school but found the laws prevented him from doing so. So, he made it clear such nonsense is not allowed by removing something you have no "right" to have. Fair warning, I suspect the next time you do this (Unless the search was just a random one under school policy and not by reasonable suspicion.) you might find the police are the ones with the reasonable suspicion and not the VP.

So why not call the police then? No real reasonable suspicion I suppose.
School doesn't need reasonable suspicion though do they? The handbook makes it sound like they can search anything anytime. It wasn't just my car they were interested in, they searched/wanted to search some others.

 

[tranquility]

I will make one proviso to that....

There are school systems across the country who have stopped providing bus service to students. The courts in many of those areas are challenging those school systems on the issue. I suspect that if a school system that was not providing bus service attempted to revoke a parking pass for a student because the student refused to agree to an illegal search was one of those school systems, in one of those areas, they might find themselves in a pickle.

And of course the police cannot search a vehicle that is legally parked on the street without something more than just a VP's suspicion that something untoward might be in the car. The police have to see something or smell something, or have a warrant to do such a search.

Since a vehicle is "inherently mobile" the automobile exception applies. While the wording is "probable cause", the decisions seem to point to the fact a reasonable suspicion is all that is required. The police would not have to see or smell something, they could get such reasonable suspicion or probable cause from a witness reporting known facts. Because it is an automobile, the police could search it with the same balancing of reasonableness the school could have. If a student said derpa has farkeling equipment in his vehicle, the school could search it--depending on the actual facts of how sure the student was and how bad farkeling was. (Balancing of the equities.) So could the police.

 

[tranquility]

So why not call the police then? No real reasonable suspicion I suppose.
School doesn't need reasonable suspicion though do they? The handbook makes it sound like they can search anything anytime. It wasn't just my car they were interested in, they searched/wanted to search some others.

Reasonable suspicion is a very slight test. All they would need is someone saying they saw you with something in your vehicle. But, I'm not going to speculate on what neither of us know. I do note school officials and the police have different jobs and duties and allocate resources differently. As well, and as I noted, it is possible they have a publicized policy that gives them the right too--especially one you might have agreed to with the acceptance of your parking permit. However, even if that is the case, unless it is a completely random selection where the school selects a certain number of vehicles each day to search, the VP had some reason to search yours. Admittedly, reasonable suspicion requires more than a mere hunch and maybe that is all he had--a hunch and your agreement would allow the search if the vehicle were on school grounds by policy and not by reasonable suspicion.

 

[derpa]

revoke a parking pass for a student because the student refused to agree to an illegal search

How is this even fair. I can still get it back if I 'tell them everything I know'. Well what if I have nothing to tell them? So I get punished for not agreeing to an illegal search and for not having information to tell them....

Go school.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Congratulations on learning you first lesson that life is not fair. You have several decades of lessons to go.

 

[tranquility]

How is this even fair. I can still get it back if I 'tell them everything I know'. Well what if I have nothing to tell them? So I get punished for not agreeing to an illegal search and for not having information to tell them....

Go school.

Poor you. The VP didn't believe you and now you have to park off campus. I don't think you can fully grasp how sad I am about that. With nothing to tell, you could have also allowed the search. I mean, you had that. But, you chose not that. Fine. All choices have consequences. When you don't cooperate with those who have control over if they will give you gifts or not, you should expect you don't get the gift. Remember that when your parents are older.

 

[derpa]

Reasonable suspicion is a very slight test. All they would need is someone saying they saw you with something in your vehicle. But, I'm not going to speculate on what neither of us know. I do note school officials and the police have different jobs and duties and allocate resources differently. As well, and as I noted, it is possible they have a publicized policy that gives them the right too--especially one you might have agreed to with the acceptance of your parking permit. However, even if that is the case, unless it is a completely random selection where the school selects a certain number of vehicles each day to search, the VP had some reason to search yours. Admittedly, reasonable suspicion requires more than a mere hunch and maybe that is all he had--a hunch and your agreement would allow the search if the vehicle were on school grounds by policy and not by reasonable suspicion.

I believe that they wanted to search cars of people who signed out with cars at lunch. (it seems like it, the AP didn't say that) That's all. They searched some. Then since I parked off campus we're suddenly the suspects. Which is just stupid. That's like not even a hunch.
Yes, I did agree to car searches on school property with my permit.

 

[LdiJ]

Poor you. The VP didn't believe you and now you have to park off campus. I don't think you can fully grasp how sad I am about that. With nothing to tell, you could have also allowed the search. I mean, you had that. But, you chose not that. Fine. All choices have consequences. When you don't cooperate with those who have control over if they will give you gifts or not, you should expect you don't get the gift. Remember that when your parents are older.

I dunno Tranq....in this day and age?

Would you, as a parent, instruct your minor child to allow a search that was unauthorized by law? I don't think that I would...particularly if I wasn't sure who else had been in the car.

My daughter got stopped for a routine traffic violation when she was 17. The police officer asked if anybody in the car had cigarettes and my daughter (who did not smoke) made her friend in the back seat, who did, cough up her cigs. The cop then gave my daughter a ticket for possession of tobacco on top of the traffic infraction.

That ticked me off and I decided that she needed to fight the tickets, which ended up working out in our favor because the cop made the mistake of copying the info off the registration instead of my daughter's license, so I was the person summoned to court, not my daughter...it was actually pretty funny, because DA took one look at me and dismissed the case.

In any case, the point I am making is that in this day and age major issues can result from things like illegal/unauthorized searches. I am not sure that a parent would or should instruct their child to allow something like that.

 

[TigerD]

I dunno Tranq....in this day and age?

Would you, as a parent, instruct your minor child to allow a search that was unauthorized by law? I don't think that I would...particularly if I wasn't sure who else had been in the car.

Aslo, bear in mind that school officials are not merely acting to enforce school discipline now -- they are building cases and intentionally collecting evidence for law enforcement. This is going to be the next evolution in school law.

DC

 

[tranquility]

I believe that they wanted to search cars of people who signed out with cars at lunch. (it seems like it, the AP didn't say that) That's all. They searched some. Then since I parked off campus we're suddenly the suspects. Which is just stupid. That's like not even a hunch.
Yes, I did agree to car searches on school property with my permit.

Yet, the VP felt there was a story to tell; something you "know". While he may be wrong, it hardly seems like it was a random search. The best I could figure, giving you the benefit of a doubt is the school had word of some get together at lunch where contraband or weapons were used and/or exchanged and that many students were there in cars. They then wanted to search all the drivers coming back to campus under the policy. THAT would not be reasonable suspicion, but a hunch. The police would not be able to search nor would the school be able to search on such a hunch. But then, that is being generous.

Even then, do you really think it "rude" for your permit to be revoked under the circumstances of your interaction? Really? The above is the only way that, assuming you are not involved with anything wrong, I could see events working out as they have for you. Put yourself in the VP's shoes, does it all really pass the smell test? If I were the VP I'd have ended with the fingers to my eyes and back to you in the "I'll be watching you." hand sign. Expect this may not have ended for you.