Factory Roush Mustang vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?

[justalayman]

I agree, with the appraisal, statement by the dealer, emails from Roush, original advertisement as well as the falsified bill of sale, I think it's clear I am owed something. Not to mention fraud is a crime and I don't want this guy to get away with it.

but was it fraud?


If I do an upgrade at home and advertise it as a Roush 427R, am I misrepresenting it? After all, it IS a Roush 427R physically. It just isn't one by the fact Roush did the upgrade. If I advertised it as a factory built Roush 427R or said something like "authentic" (since that claim does have certain connotations in the car world due to the many clones out there), then you have an argument. Simply stating it is a Roush 427R without any other clarification is not likely to be seen as fraud. In addition, it is the buyers obligation to perform their due diligence prior to purchase. You apparently failed in that aspect and only after the sale when you had second thoughts did you start to check out the pedigree.

In your situation there is an issue with the use of "factory" in the description. Got copies of those ads?

In the online add as well as several magazine articles (which I have possession of) he claimed he had it built at the Roush Factory which would make it a "Factory Roush".

you said you contacted Roush. To prevail I believe you will have to have a statement (in writing, their letterhead and as much authentication as you can muster) stating they have never worked on a car with the VIN (your VIN here). Anything else can simply be tossed out as they simply didn't bother to check your records and the guy you talked to didn't remember doing anything to that car.


http://www.roushperformance.com/scripts/vin-search.cgi

see what that comes back with

 

[Rachael427R]

but was it fraud?


If I do an upgrade at home and advertise it as a Roush 427R, am I misrepresenting it? After all, it IS a Roush 427R physically. It just isn't one by the fact Roush did the upgrade. If I advertised it as a factory built Roush 427R or said something like "authentic" (since that claim does have certain connotations in the car world due to the many clones out there), then you have an argument. Simply stating it is a Roush 427R without any other clarification is not likely to be seen as fraud. In addition, it is the buyers obligation to perform their due diligence prior to purchase. You apparently failed in that aspect and only after the sale when you had second thoughts did you start to check out the pedigree.

In your situation there is an issue with the use of "factory" in the description. Got copies of those ads?

you said you contacted Roush. To prevail I believe you will have to have a statement (in writing, their letterhead and as much authentication as you can muster) stating they have never worked on a car with the VIN (your VIN here). Anything else can simply be tossed out as they simply didn't bother to check your records and the guy you talked to didn't remember doing anything to that car.


http://www.roushperformance.com/scripts/vin-search.cgi

see what that comes back with

Technically, to answer your question, yes it is misrepresentation. I have a quote from Roush Performance saying they do not recognize my car as a Roush. They recognize it as a "Ford Mustang GT modified with aftermarket Roush retail parts". Just because you add all the necessary Roush parts to a car does not make it a Roush. If I buy some nice Coach fabric and a nice Coach logo and sew together a bag that looks just like a Coach bag, it does not in fact make it a Coach bag. Coach would not recognize it as such and I certainly could not charge Coach money for it if I tried to sell it. This car should have been described as a Roush clone, replica or as a modified GT with Roush parts, NOT as a "Roush" or "Factory Roush". I do have copies of the ad. I tried searching my VIN on the Roush site and nothing came up. I also had a Roush rep do some research with no luck. I agree that I will need to get some sort of official statement detailing their records (in this case, lack thereof).

You are right in that I did not do sufficient research and that is where it gets fuzzy for me as I do not know how much that will count against me in a court of law. Will the fact that I did not do my research before outweigh the fact that the car was misrepresented on a notarized bill of sale?

 

[justalayman]

You are right in that I did not do sufficient research and that is where it gets fuzzy for me as I do not know how much that will count against me in a court of law
Will the fact that I did not do my research before outweigh the fact that the car was misrepresented on a notarized bill of sale?

It's hard to say. Some depends on what the seller brings as a defense. You also have that; way below market price for an authentic Roush427R issue that is a serious problem.

Some preliminary research indicates that cars similar to mine that are factory are selling for about $35,000. I bought it for $24,000. I would have offered even less if I knew it was a clone. The thing with factory Roushes is that they will appreciate in value over time. A Roush clone will depreciate in value. I spent more than I was willing thinking I was getting a car that was more valuable and would appreciate in value.

so when you thought you were taking advantage of the seller, it was ok with you but now you have found it was the other way around you have a problem with it. That will weigh heavily against you.

so, how much is the car you bought actually worth on the market?

 

[Rachael427R]

It's hard to say. Some depends on what the seller brings as a defense. You also have that; way below market price for an authentic Roush427R issue that is a serious problem.


so when you thought you were taking advantage of the seller, it was ok with you but now you have found it was the other way around you have a problem with it. That will weigh heavily against you.

so, how much is the car you bought actually worth on the market?

I would not say that it is way below market price for an authentic Roush, but it also is above market price for a clone ($18-20k). I don't know how I can be accused of taking advantage of the seller when I paid him what he was asking for it. He was desperate to get rid of the car due to some "personal circumstances that changed" in his life. It's none of my business why he chose to price it the way he did. For all I know, I was doing him a favor as he seemed to need to make a quick sale. If it was authentic I got a good deal on it. But it is not, so I over paid.

 

[Zigner]

I would not say that it is way below market price for an authentic Roush, but it also is above market price for a clone ($18-20k). I don't know how I can be accused of taking advantage of the seller when I paid him what he was asking for it. He was desperate to get rid of the car due to some "personal circumstances that changed" in his life. It's none of my business why he chose to price it the way he did. For all I know, I was doing him a favor as he seemed to need to make a quick sale. If it was authentic I got a good deal on it. But it is not, so I over paid.

So, you make a good deal, great for you. You make a bad deal, it's gotta be fraud!


Really, paying 30% below market value didn't cause you to look twice?

 

[justalayman]

=Rachael427R;3219345]I would not say that it is way below market price for an authentic Roush,

seriously? You are arguing that paying 2/3 of the market value of a car is not way below market value? Sorry but either your numbers are not accurate and you know it or you don't understand that a 1/3 discount on a $35k car is a serious discount.

but it also is above market price for a clone ($18-20k).

but the over price is less than the discount you had no problem with paying thinking you were getting the real deal.

I don't know how I can be accused of taking advantage of the seller when I paid him what he was asking for it.

when I sold my Picasso for $100 at the garage sale and the buyer turned around and sold it at auction for $3.2M, if they knew it was a $3.2M Picasso, they were taking advantage of my ignorance. If they bought it simply because they thought it was a neat painting and later discovered it was an authentic Picasso, they were not taking advantage me.

He was desperate to get rid of the car due to some "personal circumstances that changed" in his life.

so, want to buy some (swamp)land I have in Florida? I'll give you a real deal on it since I have to pay the note on my Swedish chalet or I'm going to lose it. I'm taking a real loss on it but I'm willing to sell it to you for 125% of market value.

Seriously, you continue to post problems in your argument that you got taken advantage of.





It's none of my business why he chose to price it the way he did.

For all I know, I was doing him a favor as he seemed to need to make a quick sale.

what did Barnum say? Oh ya, there's sucker born every minute (although he really didn't say it but rather a man that had a problem with Barnums "style" of business)

If it was authentic I got a good deal on it.

if it was authentic you got an unbelievable deal on it and yes, that unbelievable part is where your problem comes into play.

 

[Rachael427R]

So, you make a good deal, great for you. You make a bad deal, it's gotta be fraud!


Really, paying 30% below market value didn't cause you to look twice?

It doesn't "gotta be" fraud, but it is! He lied on an official document! I bought this car as an investment as it will become a collector item and considered historic after 25 years. If authentic it could appreciate in value. This won't happen now. I by no means ripped this guy off. He knew what he had, he put his money into it. If he wanted more for it he could have asked more for it. I was in the market for a car, found one that caught my eye and was in my budget. He told me about it, promised to send me the documents and receipts once he found them and I paid the man. We had a great relationship in the beginning. He was incredibly pleased that his baby would be in my hands because he really felt like I was a perfect fit and a genuine mustang lover. He asked for pictures of me with the car at my first car show and I happily sent them to him. There was no ill-feelings until he kept giving me excuses why he still hadn't sent me the paperwork he promised (because it didn't exist). I called the dealership and Roush to see if I could get copies from them and they explained to me that this man misled me. He tried to rip off the dealership as well when he had his mechanic buddy put all the Roush parts on the car then tried to sell it back to the dealership claiming it was factory. The dealership has my back on this story and so does Roush.

 

[justalayman]

He lied on an official document!

an "official" document" ? That would be what? Official meaning what? My used toilet paper is official too. Doesn't mean a lot, now does it?

I bought this car as an investment as it will become a collector item and considered historic after 25 years.

so you thought you were getting an unbelievable fantastic deal since you had already investigated the market and realized that an authentic Roush427R was worth closer to $35k. Again, you are killing your own argument that you were taken advantage of.


the old saying; if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is applies here. You knew the price was way under market value.

I called the dealership and Roush to see if I could get copies from them and they explained to me that this man misled me. He tried to rip off the dealership as well when he had his mechanic buddy put all the Roush parts on the car then tried to sell it back to the dealership claiming it was factory. The dealership has my back on this story and so does Roush.

so, if it was so easily discovered, why didn't you realize it? Oh ya, that due diligence thing.

 

[Rachael427R]

but the over price is less than the discount you had no problem with paying thinking you were getting the real deal.

Perhaps, but at the same time I considered this purchase an appreciating investment. If and when I go to sell this car down the road, I will have to call it a modified GT with Roush parts or else risk someone trying to sue me. That title will inherently decrease the $$ someone is willing to pay for it. If it had been titled as such when I bought the car, I would have really tried to negotiate with him. And this comes back to my question: does it not matter that he lied on the bill of sale? Is all the fault put on me? I'm not trying to be an ass here, I really want to know. It just doesn't seem right that he knowingly lied to me and then on an official document and gets away with it. He took my money under false pretenses. Is that not enough?

I really would rather not go to court with all this. It's a headache and I don't have the time. It's why I wrote on this forum to begin with. To see if I have a case. Would a threatening letter from an attorney be enough to provoke him into paying me back a few grand? I know this depends on the seller and his stance, but do such letters typically work?

 

[Mass_Shyster]

I bet you are red faced (like in the English translation for rouge) or are definitely not a car guy.

The red face comes from overindulging in funsuckers

Roush, not rouge.

Yeah, I used the correct word/spelling in post 6.

The last "performance" car I owned was a 1987 Trans Am. I've been a mini-van guy since the early 90's.

 

[Rachael427R]

an "official" document" ? That would be what? Official meaning what? My used toilet paper is official too. Doesn't mean a lot, now does it?

so you thought you were getting an unbelievable fantastic deal since you had already investigated the market and realized that an authentic Roush427R was worth closer to $35k. Again, you are killing your own argument that you were taken advantage of.


the old saying; if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is applies here. You knew the price was way under market value.


so, if it was so easily discovered, why didn't you realize it? Oh ya, that due diligence thing.

Official as in a notarized bill of sale, not a google searched bill of sale, but one with a Motor Vehicle Association seal.

I did not consider it an investment piece simply because I was paying below market value, no matter what I paid for it I would have considered it an investment piece because a couple decades down the road an authentic Roush will be worth more money...even if I paid the market value of $35 for it.

You keep saying due diligence, due diligence. Does that have more weight than fraud and breach of contract?? So what you're saying is that the way the law works, so long as the buyers don't figure out the fraud through research before they sign the check, it's ok to lie and con people because they should have figured it out before.

 

[Zigner]

Official as in a notarized bill of sale, not a google searched bill of sale, but one with a Motor Vehicle Association seal.

A bill of sale is not a title.

I did not consider it an investment piece simply because I was paying below market value, no matter what I paid for it I would have considered it an investment piece because a couple decades down the road an authentic Roush will be worth more money...even if I paid the market value of $35 for it.

Speculation.

You keep saying due diligence, due diligence. Does that have more weight than fraud and breach of contract?? So what you're saying is that the way the law works, so long as the buyers don't figure out the fraud through research before they sign the check, it's ok to lie and con people because they should have figured it out before.

Fraud or breach of contract is something that is determined by a court of law. Right now, you simply have allegations of such things.

 

[Zigner]

What would you like to do? Do you wish to rescind the sale, or do you wish to be compensated for the difference between what you paid and what you feel you should have paid?

 

[Rachael427R]

What would you like to do? Do you wish to rescind the sale, or do you wish to be compensated for the difference between what you paid and what you feel you should have paid?

It is written the same on both the bill of sale and the title--thanks for reminding me, so that makes two documents, not just one

No I do not wish to rescind the sale. I simply want to be compensated the difference. I'm hoping a letter from an attorney will prompt him to pay the difference. If we take it to court I will be asking for that plus legal fees and lost wages for time off.

 

[justalayman]

If it had been titled as such when I bought the car,

whoa right there. He could not have altered the title of the car. It is what it was when the manufacturer made the car and issue a C of O. The only thing that changes (barring a branding and any possible lien holder) is the odometer reading and the owner of record.