Urgent help to heall with a gas boiler with defects for more than 1.5 years

[littleMike]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MA

I am living Massachusetts, so in winter we need boiler to provide heating and hot water. in 4.2012, a new gas boiler with 4 heating zones (1 for water and 3 for house) was purchased and installed by a contractor for near $10,000. Immediately after the installation, it was found it could stop working randomly. So I had to call services and each time the boiler needed to be reset to work again. I was told some adjustment was necessary for new device. Just in winter during 10/2012 to 4/2013, it stopped every several days. The contractor was called at least 40 times during this period. He made numerous attempts or adjustments, He also made some major changes during the winter, but it didn't resolve problem. Then 2012-2013 winter was over, it worked OK for hot water. Now since 10/2013 when heating is needed, it stopped again from time to time, often in midnight.

Now the contractor told me I have to change to a different model because of the problem can't be fixed, but I have to pay additional $2500 for parts and labor. The contract stated there is 1 year warranties including parts and labor, 15 years to cover parts. I believe this problem started right after its installation within one years.
Before finding a lawyer to deal with it, are there any other option to pursue?

Thanks in advance.

L.M.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Contact the manufacturer about the issue and seek their guidance.

 

[littleMike]

Urgent help to deall with a gas boiler with defects for more than 1.5 years

I called the manufacturer today and got to know more about the situation.

My contractor and the manufacturer have been dealing with this similar problems for many other consumers. So the manufacturer told me the contractor shouldn't put this model in my home in the first place. They said the manual instruction clearly states the minimal requirement for pipe size is 1 1/4 inch, but my home pipe is 3/4 inch.

So it looks to me this is contractor's problem. So I called the contractor again about this. The contractor now agreed these requirements do exist. But now he said the new model he will replace is more expensive than the one I had.

How to deal with such contractor, who doesn't want to take responsibility of the mistake he created?

Thanks.

 

[justalayman]

while the manufacturer said this:

So the manufacturer told me the contractor shouldn't put this model in my home in the first place.

shouldn't doesn't mean a lot in itself.

Did you get anything from the manufacture such that installing the correct size supply line would remedy the problem?


from what you are describing, it is a simple matter of an inadequate gas supply and due to the low resulting pressure when utilizing it for heat and domestic hot water it registers as a "no gas" situation and there is a safety tripping.

is the gas supply available at your house even capable of running the current unit? Just putting a larger supply pipe there doesn't mean there is enough gas available to utilize that size of a supply pipe.

But now he said the new model he will replace is more expensive than the one I had.

that actually is an irrelevant issue. It would have cost more originally to put in the "proper" unit so the fact it costs more now doesn't change the end cost.


I would speak with the manufacture to determine if your unit could be retrofit with burners or orifices or anything else that would reduce the BTUh capacity of the unit (which the new unit most assuredly will be as you can't get the same amount of heat out of a lesser amount of gas) such that it would operate properly?

 

[littleMike]

I was talking about water pipes that circle between boiler and air handlers, not the gas pipes. If it was gas pipes, it might be easier to fix. Because water circulation pipes are running inside of walls, not easy to replace. The problem occurs because the device in the boiler detects water changing temperature too quick to be safe, so it shutdowns the systems.

It looks to me the contractor either didn't notice the pipe requirements when he made an order, or just ignored it and took a chance. This manufacturer doesn't have any other model to fit my home system, so now have to use different brand boiler to fit.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Perhaps the addition of a resistor could delay the response?

(Sorry I can't process well enough anymore to help on this issue)

 

[justalayman]

littleMike;3229620]I was talking about water pipes that circle between boiler and air handlers, not the gas pipes. If it was gas pipes, it might be easier to fix. Because water circulation pipes are running inside of walls, not easy to replace. The problem occurs because the device in the boiler detects water changing temperature too quick to be safe, so it shutdowns the systems.

this is getting way off the legal issues but I am overly curious about this and if you would care to humor me, I would appreciate it.


is this a tankless system?

and what water is it sensing that is changing too quickly that causes this trip out?

and changing too quickly from cold to hot or hot to cold?

is it a staged burner with multiple outputs (an on demand variable burner)?

what is the BTUh rating of the heater and the BTUh rating of the replacement?

as to the legal issues:

as long as the repair does not cost more than the new unit would have cost if that was put in originally, you haven't been "damaged" since that is what you would have had to pay anyway. Costs above that level are due to the error on the installer so those should not be yours to bear.

 

[littleMike]

this is getting way off the legal issues but I am overly curious about this and if you would care to humor me, I would appreciate it.


is this a tankless system?
No, this is not a tankless system, water heater is so called indirect heater.

and what water is it sensing that is changing too quickly that causes this trip out?
The system is using inlet/outlet water temp to decide when to start/stop the boiler to heat.

and changing too quickly from cold to hot or hot to cold?
hot water flow from boiler to air handler and return colder water back to boiler; this water should stay in pipe as heat exchange agent;

is it a staged burner with multiple outputs (an on demand variable burner)?
I am not sure

what is the BTUh rating of the heater and the BTUh rating of the replacement?
155000btu

as to the legal issues:

as long as the repair does not cost more than the new unit would have cost if that was put in originally, you haven't been "damaged" since that is what you would have had to pay anyway. Costs above that level are due to the error on the installer so those should not be yours to bear.

The contractor came and tried so many times to repair, and now he quit as no more option he can have other than replace a new one.
Here are facts:
* My heating system have been stop so many times in cold winter, I didn't ask for compensation for damage but for a good working system that I paid for;
* The new model is not a better model. In fact, according to several webs, the new model and my exist model are in the similar price range, in fact, one site even shows the new models are cheaper. The contractor asked for $2500 from me is likely an excuse to lower this replacement costs.

Again, this was the mistake the contract caused, because he didn't read the manual right, and use the wrong model.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Change the location of temperature sensor in the system? Installation of a diverter/bypass so sensor temp does not react as quick?

 

[littleMike]

The contractor did many things including adjusting the temp sensors, changing more powerful circulators to move water quicker in small pipes, adding bypasses etc. He got all the helps from the tech support center of the manufacturer. I have to say he did a diligent work to try to repair. Now he admits this model doesn't fit my pipes after I confirmed with the manufacturer directly.

But still this is contractor's mistake when he select this model. I asked him to show me the cost when he ordered the both models in the past, he rejected. I am sure there is no $2500 difference between old and new models. But does it cost $2500 or more to replace a new model? Probably yes, but again, this the cost he should pay.

So I am seeking legal advice here, what any reasonable steps I should take before bringing this to a lawyer? Give him a warning? Write a formal latter, or send the complaint to state attorney general's office which does have an office to handle consumer's complaint, or BBB, anything else that you think is more helpful?

Thanks.

 

[justalayman]

I am sure there is no $2500 difference between old and new models. But does it cost $2500 or more to replace a new model? Probably yes, but again, this the cost he should pay.

to start with, do an actual comparison between the current model and the one you intend on installing. Once you get that number, then you can argue if $2500 is a valid cost or not.

So I am seeking legal advice here, what any reasonable steps I should take before bringing this to a lawyer? Give him a warning? Write a formal latter, or send the complaint to state attorney general's office which does have an office to handle consumer's complaint, or BBB, anything else that you think is more helpful?

You can do whatever you want to do but what everybody else will see is:



he installed a unit he believed to be proper although it appears he was wrong

he spent one Hell of a lot of time trying to make it work

once it has been realized it just is not going to work, he is offering to install a different unit for a fee of $2500.



that is it at the moment. You have no idea if he has a valid claim for the $2500 or maybe he should be charging more, or less. Nobody is going to be able to tell you if he is screwing you over unless they know those numbers.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I think I have your answer. Variation of the motor HP can accommodate the different size flow lines. If the current is regulated to decrease the pump motor hp it will decrease the line back pressure. Due to forum rules I can't post the link. Google "install 1 1/4 boiler into 3/4 lines" Select the first pdf (installation & maint instructions 106 ****** boiler)

 

[Mass_Shyster]

Forget the BBB. They have no authority to do anything.

If you do send a demand letter, make sure it complies with MGL Chapter 93A. That offers a boatload of protection if you go to court. In fact, you may wish to have an attorney draft it for you. Under some circumstances, you can get double or treble damages plus attorney fees under 93A.

You can also complain to the licensing board, assuming this person is a licensed plumber and/or contractor.

 

[justalayman]

Forget the BBB. They have no authority to do anything.

If you do send a demand letter, make sure it complies with MGL Chapter 93A. That offers a boatload of protection if you go to court. In fact, you may wish to have an attorney draft it for you. Under some circumstances, you can get double or treble damages plus attorney fees under 93A.

You can also complain to the licensing board, assuming this person is a licensed plumber and/or contractor.

not arguing your overall direction but just what do you believe the OP has available to them? When a manufacturer says this:

My contractor and the manufacturer have been dealing with this similar problems for many other consumers. So the manufacturer told me the contractor shouldn't put this model in my home in the first place. They said the manual instruction clearly states the minimal requirement for pipe size is 1 1/4 inch, but my home pipe is 3/4 inch.

shouldn't put that model in his home...

but why? That would make a huge difference to whether the OP is actually getting the shaft or not.

but even then, if the proposed cost to put the new one in is an actual difference in cost, the OP is not out a thing (other than a few cold nights apparently) and would be due nothing.




There is one more thing I would suggest the OP do before he do anything else:

contact the manufacture. Explain to them the issue and ask them to either have one of their own techs inspect the installation or to recommend another company that would perform an inspection of the system (probably going to cost the OP a little money if a private contractor is requested to inspect it). It may be that the installer is simply not smart enough to figure out the real problem and before investing more time and money.

Knowing what I know about such systems, I find it difficult to believe there is not some work around or that there isn't actually a defect in the unit causing the issue.

 

[littleMike]

When a manufacturer says this:

shouldn't put that model in his home...

but why? That would make a huge difference to whether the OP is actually getting the shaft or not.

This is because the installation guideline requires circulation pipes at 1 1/4 inch while my house pipes are 3/4. The contractor missed this or ignored this by taking a chance.



There is one more thing I would suggest the OP do before he do anything else:

contact the manufacture. Explain to them the issue and ask them to either have one of their own techs inspect the installation or to recommend another company that would perform an inspection of the system (probably going to cost the OP a little money if a private contractor is requested to inspect it). It may be that the installer is simply not smart enough to figure out the real problem and before investing more time and money.

Knowing what I know about such systems, I find it difficult to believe there is not some work around or that there isn't actually a defect in the unit causing the issue.

I called, and realized the contractor and manufacture had worked on this to find solutions, but they exhausted all options. That's why the manufacture could tell me quickly the model doesn't fit the pipe size. They already concluded a new model is needed.