modifying visitation after 10 years & child's choice

[krawstrong]

Your comments

I do get it. It is a parenting problem. So, you are all saying that there is no room for any other answer? NO ROOM WHATSOEVER? In my opinion, you are all tired of seeing flakes say that they want to interrupt visitation for what ever reason. I haven't interrupted visitation whatsoever in my past 10 years. I am not that flake you all are sick of listening to. So, putting your "regular" comments as a bandage over my situation isn't really enlightening. You can make your comments all you want. They seem thoughtless and repeated.

Do my past decisions not give a glimpse to my future decisions? Until this is resolved, I will be sending my child for visitation. Did any of you read that I've sent my child to be with his father on more occasions than were required? At my own expense and invasion of my schedule because I knew it was "right"?

I left the ex because of domestic violence. I got serious counseling to not pick that kinda guy again. He married another woman who is just like I was. Verbal abuse continues with all of the consequences... The ex isn't classically abusive to my son, no hitting, no sex, but he does berate my family, and our ways of life, which would be considered psychological abuse. When my son tries to talk with him about coming over less often, then the emotional abuse really kicks in. The ex is psychologically abusive to his current wife in front of my son. My son just doesn't want to be in that situation.

Below is a description of domestic violence...

Domestic violence can take a number of forms, including:
* physical behavior (slapping, punching, pulling hair or shoving)
* forced or coerced sexual acts or behavior (unwanted fondling or intercourse, or sexual jokes and insults)
* threats (threatening to hit, harm or use a weapon)
* psychological abuse (attacks on self-esteem, attempts to control or limit another person's behavior, repeated insults or interrogation)
* stalking (following a person, appearing at a person's home or workplace, making repeated phone calls or leaving written messages), or
* cyberstalking (repeated online action or email that causes substantial emotional distress).

The big BUT is that he could say that he is having just normal spats with his wife and that our son has to deal with it.

I have appreciated all of your comments because they have made me really think about what the future could hold. I know that an attorney and/or a judge could also make these comments to me. So I either have to put up or shut up.

 

[txrose1998]

I do get it. It is a parenting problem. So, you are all saying that there is no room for any other answer? NO ROOM WHATSOEVER? In my opinion, you are all tired of seeing flakes say that they want to interrupt visitation for what ever reason. I haven't interrupted visitation whatsoever in my past 10 years. I am not that flake you all are sick of listening to. So, putting your "regular" comments as a bandage over my situation isn't really enlightening. You can make your comments all you want. They seem thoughtless and repeated.

Do my past decisions not give a glimpse to my future decisions? Until this is resolved, I will be sending my child for visitation. Did any of you read that I've sent my child to be with his father on more occasions than were required? At my own expense and invasion of my schedule because I knew it was "right"?

I left the ex because of domestic violence. I got serious counseling to not pick that kinda guy again. He married another woman who is just like I was. Verbal abuse continues with all of the consequences... The ex isn't classically abusive to my son, no hitting, no sex, but he does berate my family, and our ways of life, which would be considered psychological abuse. When my son tries to talk with him about coming over less often, then the emotional abuse really kicks in. The ex is psychologically abusive to his current wife in front of my son. My son just doesn't want to be in that situation.

Below is a description of domestic violence...

Domestic violence can take a number of forms, including:
* physical behavior (slapping, punching, pulling hair or shoving)
* forced or coerced sexual acts or behavior (unwanted fondling or intercourse, or sexual jokes and insults)
* threats (threatening to hit, harm or use a weapon)
* psychological abuse (attacks on self-esteem, attempts to control or limit another person's behavior, repeated insults or interrogation)
* stalking (following a person, appearing at a person's home or workplace, making repeated phone calls or leaving written messages), or
* cyberstalking (repeated online action or email that causes substantial emotional distress).

The big BUT is that he could say that he is having just normal spats with his wife and that our son has to deal with it.

I have appreciated all of your comments because they have made me really think about what the future could hold. I know that an attorney and/or a judge could also make these comments to me. So I either have to put up or shut up.

OP:

Yes, we do see this kind of question over and over again. But our answers are not thoughtless. The problem is that everyone thinks there situation is unique and different. This does not mean that we do not care, it means that there are many parents dealing with silimar issues out there. Some that I know very well.

It is good that you have "gone over and beyond," but morally, that is what you should do...so you do not get any special treatment for it.

I am not saying that it is a good thing that your ex berates you and your family in front of your son. I am not saying that it is a good thing that he berates his wife in front of the family. HOWEVER, that is his choice. That is his way of parenting. We may not agree with it, but that does not make is wrong or "illegal."

As your child gets older, he needs to learn how to communicate his wants/feelings with his father. Please, please, please consider the counseling.

Also, you have had an attorney responding on this thread....what she is saying you need to expect when you bring this before a judge.

 

[escape2paradise]

I do get it. It is a parenting problem. So, you are all saying that there is no room for any other answer? NO ROOM WHATSOEVER? In my opinion, you are all tired of seeing flakes say that they want to interrupt visitation for what ever reason. I haven't interrupted visitation whatsoever in my past 10 years. I am not that flake you all are sick of listening to. So, putting your "regular" comments as a bandage over my situation isn't really enlightening. You can make your comments all you want. They seem thoughtless and repeated.

Do my past decisions not give a glimpse to my future decisions? Until this is resolved, I will be sending my child for visitation. Did any of you read that I've sent my child to be with his father on more occasions than were required? At my own expense and invasion of my schedule because I knew it was "right"?

I left the ex because of domestic violence. I got serious counseling to not pick that kinda guy again. He married another woman who is just like I was. Verbal abuse continues with all of the consequences... The ex isn't classically abusive to my son, no hitting, no sex, but he does berate my family, and our ways of life, which would be considered psychological abuse. When my son tries to talk with him about coming over less often, then the emotional abuse really kicks in. The ex is psychologically abusive to his current wife in front of my son. My son just doesn't want to be in that situation.

Below is a description of domestic violence...

Domestic violence can take a number of forms, including:
* physical behavior (slapping, punching, pulling hair or shoving)
* forced or coerced sexual acts or behavior (unwanted fondling or intercourse, or sexual jokes and insults)
* threats (threatening to hit, harm or use a weapon)
* psychological abuse (attacks on self-esteem, attempts to control or limit another person's behavior, repeated insults or interrogation)
* stalking (following a person, appearing at a person's home or workplace, making repeated phone calls or leaving written messages), or
* cyberstalking (repeated online action or email that causes substantial emotional distress).

The big BUT is that he could say that he is having just normal spats with his wife and that our son has to deal with it.

I have appreciated all of your comments because they have made me really think about what the future could hold. I know that an attorney and/or a judge could also make these comments to me. So I either have to put up or shut up.

Yes, we do get it. What we are telling you is that "legally" it is of little to no consequence. Unfortunately the emotional abuse would have to be extreme and while it sucks that your X talks the way he does to your son, legally that is not a good enough argument to scale back the visitation.

Go talk to an attorney. An honest one will tell you that this is an uphill battle that you are likely to lose. However, I'm sure you can kind find one to tell you want you want to hear and take your thousands of dollars as well.

Sorry for your son, the best thing you can do for him is teach him to cope. A counselor would be beneficial here.

 

[wileybunch]

krawstrong, you really have gotten good advice even if you think it's cookie cutter and unimaginative for your case. Your situation really is not different than many many other cases. Please take a step back and let what you've been told sink in.

Also, while there may be people involved that could use some better parenting or interpersonal communication skills, the definition you posted of "psychological abuse" has really nothing at all to do with this situation. A judge wouldn't be interested in that dialog, either. Your son is not being "abused" and doesn't need "protecting" by you or the court.

The counseling that has been suggested should be geared toward helping your son have a better relationship with his dad whether that be for your son to better understand the role and responsibility of a father (and his father specifically) or how and what your son should communicate to his parents (both you and his father). You should also pursue counseling on how to step back and allow the father-child relationship even if it's not what you would necessarily choose b/c it's too late for that -- he's already Dad. If son has something he needs to get across to his dad, you have to know that you are not the right intermediary b/c it hasn't worked so far and that's unlikely to change.

I also wanted to make mention that while you felt your childhood experience wasn't good, I doubt there could be a case made that to have severely curtailed your time with your father would have been "better", either. Sometimes you just have to make the most of the situation you do have because it is what it is.

 

[JBMD]

I do get it. It is a parenting problem. So, you are all saying that there is no room for any other answer? NO ROOM WHATSOEVER? In my opinion, you are all tired of seeing flakes say that they want to interrupt visitation for what ever reason. I haven't interrupted visitation whatsoever in my past 10 years. I am not that flake you all are sick of listening to. So, putting your "regular" comments as a bandage over my situation isn't really enlightening. You can make your comments all you want. They seem thoughtless and repeated.

Do my past decisions not give a glimpse to my future decisions? Until this is resolved, I will be sending my child for visitation. Did any of you read that I've sent my child to be with his father on more occasions than were required? At my own expense and invasion of my schedule because I knew it was "right"?

I left the ex because of domestic violence. I got serious counseling to not pick that kinda guy again. He married another woman who is just like I was. Verbal abuse continues with all of the consequences... The ex isn't classically abusive to my son, no hitting, no sex, but he does berate my family, and our ways of life, which would be considered psychological abuse. When my son tries to talk with him about coming over less often, then the emotional abuse really kicks in. The ex is psychologically abusive to his current wife in front of my son. My son just doesn't want to be in that situation.

Below is a description of domestic violence...

Domestic violence can take a number of forms, including:
* physical behavior (slapping, punching, pulling hair or shoving)
* forced or coerced sexual acts or behavior (unwanted fondling or intercourse, or sexual jokes and insults)
* threats (threatening to hit, harm or use a weapon)
* psychological abuse (attacks on self-esteem, attempts to control or limit another person's behavior, repeated insults or interrogation)
* stalking (following a person, appearing at a person's home or workplace, making repeated phone calls or leaving written messages), or
* cyberstalking (repeated online action or email that causes substantial emotional distress).

The big BUT is that he could say that he is having just normal spats with his wife and that our son has to deal with it.

I have appreciated all of your comments because they have made me really think about what the future could hold. I know that an attorney and/or a judge could also make these comments to me. So I either have to put up or shut up.

It might be easier to try to explain to dad that the flight across country every month is taking it's toll on a 10 yr old child. If he were in public school that would not be the case. Have you tried discussing with dad alternate arrangements such as one week every other month and trying to be sure to keep weekly telephone contact. (Just an option.)

If you take it to court (and it will be you NOT KIDDO) then you will be looking at the stardard long distance parenting plan in your state ... I don't know what it is for Washington but it's probably similar to this - extended summer break (anywhere from 6 wks to all summer), every spring break, and every other holiday. It may even be better for kiddo if he was to have this set-up, then he'd have more quality time with dad, rather than just sitting around for a few days every other month! It's a shot. No court will allow kiddo to say - No I don't want to go! But i can see how a monthly flight across country can be daunting for anyone let alone a 10yr old kid.

Try to discuss with kiddo that he should try to work with his dad on thier relationship ... you shouldn't jsut say "i'm forcing him to go" ... they should have a good relationship and yes, that is partly dad's job too, but you need to be supportive when he says "i dont' want to go to dad's" .... no just ok, i'll see what I can do. I am by no means saying that that is what your doing ... I'm just giving you something to consider!

Good luck!

 

[CJane]

He hates when they say negative things about our family.

I didn't read the rest of the posts to this thread. I'm sure you got a lot of accurate legal advice that you didn't want to hear.

But I thought I'd address this since I have kids who are close in age to your kid who also have to hear negative things about me ALL OF THE TIME when they're at their father's house.

I told them that when someone - ANYONE - speaks badly about a member of their family - ANY MEMBER - then they should say "Please don't talk like that about my family, it hurts me."

I told them THAT is where their responsibility begins and ends. They are to put the person on notice that their actions are hurtful, and they are to let it go. If that person continues to engage in the behavior AFTER they know it's hurtful to the children.... well... it's not going to IMPROVE the relationship.

But sometimes? The kids just have to spend time with the parent they're not close to. It's a fact of life and a dose of reality that they'd have to deal with even in an intact family. I didn't always like my Mom. No one swooped in and 'saved' me.

 

[krawstrong]

8+ year follow up

Fast forward, my son is now 18.

My young adult son stopped seeing his father 3 1/2 years ago. He had a fight with his father, and his father said that he didn't have to come back if he didn't want to. My son took that seriously, and never went back.

My son has slowly been telling us horrifying stories of what had been going on over there.

Basically, his father was offering him up to make out with drunk adult women. His father only being around in the evenings for parties, offering my son drinks and encouraging him to be physical with adult women.

My son didn't say anything to us or to the counselor because he thought nothing could be done. The counselor said that this happens all the time, that a child will not divulge the true problem out of protecting someone or because they think nothing will be done.

I knew that there was a reason that my kid didn't want to go over there -- this just never occurred to me.

 

[Proserpina]

Fast forward, my son is now 18.

My young adult son stopped seeing his father 3 1/2 years ago. He had a fight with his father, and his father said that he didn't have to come back if he didn't want to. My son took that seriously, and never went back.

My son has slowly been telling us horrifying stories of what had been going on over there.

Basically, his father was offering him up to make out with drunk adult women. His father only being around in the evenings for parties, offering my son drinks and encouraging him to be physical with adult women.

My son didn't say anything to us or to the counselor because he thought nothing could be done. The counselor said that this happens all the time, that a child will not divulge the true problem out of protecting someone or because they think nothing will be done.

I knew that there was a reason that my kid didn't want to go over there -- this just never occurred to me.

How very sad.

 

[dannyt]

he doesnt choose

What is the name of your state? WA, but father lives in VA

Divorced in 1998, had one child. Divided property. I got $420 per month child support, and got to claim child on my taxes. We both lived in NC.

Went to court for a visitation plan, the father received:
Every other weekend
Alternating Tuesdays & Thursdays one week with Wednesdays the next week
Father’s Day
2 weeks in the summer
Christmas odd years
Easter, Thanksgiving, and New Years on even years
And other times when reasonable

I remarried, so we moved to Charlotte, NC, 2 hours away. Continued every other weekend and other times, eliminated alternating Tuesdays & Thursdays with Wednesdays.

Then we moved again for husband’s job to Asheville, NC, about 4 hours away. Continued every other weekend and other times, eliminated alternating Tuesdays & Thursdays with Wednesdays.

Then the father moved to Alexandria, Virginia, about 6 hours away. Still kept visitation schedule, eliminated alternating Tuesdays & Thursdays with Wednesdays.

Then we moved to north of Baltimore, MD, about a couple of hours of a drive. Still kept visitation schedule, eliminated alternating Tuesdays & Thursdays with Wednesdays.

2003, we moved to Washington state. The child flies almost every month for a Wednesday to Sunday visit. Plus the holidays and summer vacation. We alternate months to pay.

During this time, I have worked at keeping the child on the visitation schedule, many times going above and beyond what I had to do. Example: It was father's year for Christmas, but military changed his schedule, he canceled, then they changed again, and I flew son there at the last minute, w/ last minute expenses. Another time, I flew for a death in father's family. I homeschool child and that has been the best, it has allowed him to not have his school life too upset.

Here is the problem: Child does not want to go every month to Virginia. He would like his visitation to be changed to be about every other month and he doesn’t want to spend a whole two weeks there during the summer. When he has tried to talk with his father, his father is verbally and emotionally abusive. Comments like: You don’t love us… you don’t love your family here… your mother put you up to this.... There are other emotionally draining comments that father makes to child that wear him down so he avoids talking to his father. The child doesn't want to go as often because he cannot be involved in some organized activities being gone almost a week a month... Sounds easy, but in reality, it is not easy. The child would like to be involved in some sports and is feeling lacking in that area. I do have him involved in swimming, because you can make up missed lessons.

How do we proceed? How much would this all be? Father is in the Army, so I can’t just yank him to court. We live in WA state, so it will all be expensive. I am pretty sure father doesn’t want to go to court. If I were to say how I thought it might go down, it would be something like:

Attorney writes letter on behalf of child to father... stating that he wants his visitation revised, also offering to go to court if father chooses. Either father agrees to agree out of court, or he then initiates court. But then, that also means that the child, who will be 13 in August, will have to go to court. But child is a minor, so I don’t know how it goes.

The child doesn't want to go to VA for several reasons: 1) He doesn't spend any quality time with father, step mother won't allow it -- and his siblings are a lot younger there. 2) They berate our family. 3) When he goes now, he spends a lot of time alone because siblings are in school, friends over there are in school, father is at work, and he tries to stay out of the step mother's way. 4) Father doesn't believe that son has allergies, so doesn't allow him to take over the counter allergy medicine????? 5) Father doesn't believe that son can get a headache from being hungry, so doesn't allow him to eat...

untill he is 18 its not his choice to make. do you want to be the one your son visits instead of lives with when dad wins custody? keep allowing your son to refuse to go and thats exactly whats gonna happen.

 

[single317dad]

untill he is 18 its not his choice to make. do you want to be the one your son visits instead of lives with when dad wins custody? keep allowing your son to refuse to go and thats exactly whats gonna happen.

Shhhhhhhh.

 

[LdiJ]

How very sad.

Sad if junior isn't embellishing...and probably not at this point since he has nothing to gain by embellishing. Sad that junior didn't have a father that he could trust. Sad that father didn't recognize what he was losing by letting things end up the way that they did.

Just sad all around.

 

[stealth2]

untill he is 18 its not his choice to make. do you want to be the one your son visits instead of lives with when dad wins custody? keep allowing your son to refuse to go and thats exactly whats gonna happen.

Danny - your village is calling.

 

[krawstrong]

Truth

Sad if junior isn't embellishing...and probably not at this point since he has nothing to gain by embellishing. Sad that junior didn't have a father that he could trust. Sad that father didn't recognize what he was losing by letting things end up the way that they did.

Just sad all around.

I believe that my son is telling the truth. He confronted his father this summer after his father asked him, "what did I ever do to you?" He was calm, only repeated himself once for clarification.

One of the things that we learned in counseling was how to tell if an abusive person was going to change. The abusive person will admit with remorse their abusive behaviors, and not expect forgiveness. Think alcoholic or addict -- when they do the 12 step -- first is to admit that there is a problem.

My son got off the phone and said that his father hadn't changed, and probably won't.