Nursing home cashes out my Fathers IRA.

[voyd]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

This is my 1st post here and I can really use some advice. I apologize for the lack of brevity.

I am the POA for my father. He was accepted for medicaid around 2 months ago. I was getting his finances in order to do the proper "spend down" as the NY Dept DSS requires. I called SG (using initials to keep this sanitized) who has his retirement IRA and told them I was POA a while back and needed IRA distributions, statements, etc so I can start the medicaid application process. They knew I was POA as I fax a copy it to them and they asked me how he was as he knows them personally. This was back in January.

Anyway, I called SG last week to cash out whatever money he had. They told me that on Oct 14th with the help of the nursing home the account was cashed out by my father and the lady that works for the nursing home Denise T. I asked SG how they could give his money to them like that. All they had was a change of address form and verbally spoke to my father on the phone as he was being "coached" He is diagnosed with dementia which is why I am his POA. He was not able to attend any fair hearing because of his dementia which was signed and presented to DSS. I have made over 25 medical decisions for him in his best interest over the past year. Took care of his Apt and bills, and have been a general voice for him to the Nursing home administration.

I call the nursing home and speak with Faith, the administrator, and asked how/why they would to this. They said to me "he is feeling better now and can make his own decisions" when I heard this I went crazy and told Faith this is not correct ( I also called her a few 4 letter words as I could not believe she would do that), if my Dad was able to make his own decisions I said he wouldn't be at a nursing home and I wouldn't be talking to doctors and DSS every week. She hasn't spoke to my dad for more than 5 mins in the 9 months he has been there. I have a timeline just not with me of all events that have taken place. So now that have $28,000 of his money and I do not know what to do.

I feel like I let him down. I tried to tell him not to worry about money and I will/have take care of everything but he doesn't understand what I say. I mean he was so bad when he was at ORM hospital I was with him and he said “come close and said he was going to kill me”, he then tried to choke me. He has gotten better now but in no way did he have any idea what he was doing when he spoke to SG and I am still POA.. This is the "cliff notes" version. Is there anyway I can get some legal advice? I think this is wrong by both SG and the nursing home. I don't sleep anymore, cry at random and feel totally helpless. I need help please!!!
Thanks,
Jason

P.S. Wells Fargo got the same letter and laughed at it they told me. They said in no way they would give out funds with the letter they received (same letter SG got and was more than happy to cash out) I have to proper paperwork from Wells Fargo now and even I need help filling out the forms. Aren't these company's tied to the same standards or can I just drool on a piece of paper and sign it with crayon for some of these IRS, I.E. (SG) StoneGate, Inc)

 

[Just Blue]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

This is my 1st post here and I can really use some advice. I apologize for the lack of brevity.

I am the POA for my father. He was accepted for medicaid around 2 months ago. I was getting his finances in order to do the proper "spend down" as the NY Dept DSS requires. I called SG (using initials to keep this sanitized) who has his retirement IRA and told them I was POA a while back and needed IRA distributions, statements, etc so I can start the medicaid application process. They knew I was POA as I fax a copy it to them and they asked me how he was as he knows them personally. This was back in January.

Anyway, I called SG last week to cash out whatever money he had. They told me that on Oct 14th with the help of the nursing home the account was cashed out by my father and the lady that works for the nursing home Denise T. I asked SG how they could give his money to them like that. All they had was a change of address form and verbally spoke to my father on the phone as he was being "coached" He is diagnosed with dementia which is why I am his POA. He was not able to attend any fair hearing because of his dementia which was signed and presented to DSS. I have made over 25 medical decisions for him in his best interest over the past year. Took care of his Apt and bills, and have been a general voice for him to the Nursing home administration.

I call the nursing home and speak with Faith, the administrator, and asked how/why they would to this. They said to me "he is feeling better now and can make his own decisions" when I heard this I went crazy and told Faith this is not correct ( I also called her a few 4 letter words as I could not believe she would do that), if my Dad was able to make his own decisions I said he wouldn't be at a nursing home and I wouldn't be talking to doctors and DSS every week. She hasn't spoke to my dad for more than 5 mins in the 9 months he has been there. I have a timeline just not with me of all events that have taken place. So now that have $28,000 of his money and I do not know what to do.

I feel like I let him down. I tried to tell him not to worry about money and I will/have take care of everything but he doesn't understand what I say. I mean he was so bad when he was at ORM hospital I was with him and he said “come close and said he was going to kill me”, he then tried to choke me. He has gotten better now but in no way did he have any idea what he was doing when he spoke to SG and I am still POA.. This is the "cliff notes" version. Is there anyway I can get some legal advice? I think this is wrong by both SG and the nursing home. I don't sleep anymore, cry at random and feel totally helpless. I need help please!!!
Thanks,
Jason

P.S. Wells Fargo got the same letter and laughed at it they told me. They said in no way they would give out funds with the letter they received (same letter SG got and was more than happy to cash out) I have to proper paperwork from Wells Fargo now and even I need help filling out the forms. Aren't these company's tied to the same standards or can I just drool on a piece of paper and sign it with crayon for some of these IRS, I.E. (SG) StoneGate, Inc)

I have sent a pm to an attorney in NY that posts here...Hopefully he will be here in the next day or two to advise you...

Best Wishes
Blue

 

[justalayman]

He is diagnosed with dementia which is why I am his POA.

was the POA created before his dementia?

 

[voyd]

was the POA created before his dementia?

Yes, it was created when he was short term (PT only rehab) at the Nursing Home. It was notorized as well and explained to him. He understood what he was signing.

 

[voyd]

I have sent a pm to an attorney in NY that posts here...Hopefully he will be here in the next day or two to advise you...

Best Wishes
Blue

Thanks so much Blue!!

 

[justalayman]

Anyway, I called SG last week to cash out whatever money he had. They told me that on Oct 14th with the help of the nursing home the account was cashed out by my father and the lady that works for the nursing home Denise T. I asked SG how they could give his money to them like that. All they had was a change of address form and verbally spoke to my father on the phone as he was being "coached" He is diagnosed with dementia which is why I am his POA

you having a POA does not mean your father is incapacitated. Unless SG was informed that he was incapacitated prior to his withdrawing his funds or had reason to believe he was, there is nothing incorrect in their actions. The account holder can withdraw his funds as he wishes, even if there is a POA in place.

 

[anteater]

While the actions may or may not have been completely kosher... Let me ask this:

What is the practical consequence?

 

[voyd]

you having a POA does not mean your father is incapacitated. Unless SG was informed that he was incapacitated prior to his withdrawing his funds or had reason to believe he was, there is nothing incorrect in their actions. The account holder can withdraw his funds as he wishes, even if there is a POA in place.

They did know, as I mentioned I faxed them the POA in January. I'm very close with my Dad. How many times a week does he call me? Zero!!! He can't remember my phone number though he used to know it and it is posted next to his bed.

Given that, you think he knew the IRA account number (took me one month to find it) called them right up, filled out the forms, and wired it over) he doesnt have a regular checking/savings account, nor a reason to need 28k. He then "willing" signed it over to the Nursing home? Why would he do this? It makes no sense for HIM to do it.

But if your 100% confident that no wrong doing was going on I will drop it. I did want to use that money to spend down on bills he doesn't even know about like the 5k the ambulate company wants or they wont take him to his DR. or the Hospital just to name one thing as an example.

 

[voyd]

While the actions may or may not have been completely kosher... Let me ask this:

What is the practical consequence?

Consequence is that I should be the one who prioritizes who and went the bills are paid since he doesnt get them. The nursing home has taken away that right and "paid itself" Months ago he fell out of his wheelchair 4 days in a row each time he had to go to the emergency room. The nursing home said they would not take him back until I have them 5k dollars, Hospital is one the phone with me "sir where woudl you like him to go" So payed the home as much cash as I could get given the sort notice. My money mind you. So, to stop that from keeping me behind the eight-ball as they can easliy do that again I kept his Apt for the last 8 months none of this he knows but as POA it is my duty to look after his best interest. Does the home have his best interest? IMO know, but he likes it there so I leave it be.

Maybe I am clouded by my bias. They stole his money is the only way I see it until it is explain differently. The POA strictly states that this is a lifetime contract between me (agent) and my dad. He can revoke it at any time but I would never let that happen as he doesn't even know who the president is. To this day I have spent a total of 1k of his money as his acting agent.

I find it troubling that some of you see no problem with what the home did.

 

[LdiJ]

Consequence is that I should be the one who prioritizes who and went the bills are paid since he doesnt get them. The nursing home has taken away that right and "paid itself" Months ago he fell out of his wheelchair 4 days in a row each time he had to go to the emergency room. The nursing home said they would not take him back until I have them 5k dollars, Hospital is one the phone with me "sir where woudl you like him to go" So payed the home as much cash as I could get given the sort notice. My money mind you. So, to stop that from keeping me behind the eight-ball as they can easliy do that again I kept his Apt for the last 8 months none of this he knows but as POA it is my duty to look after his best interest. Does the home have his best interest? IMO know, but he likes it there so I leave it be.

Maybe I am clouded by my bias. They stole his money is the only way I see it until it is explain differently. The POA strictly states that this is a lifetime contract between me (agent) and my dad. He can revoke it at any time but I would never let that happen as he doesn't even know who the president is. To this day I have spent a total of 1k of his money as his acting agent.

I find it troubling that some of you see no problem with what the home did.

I definitely have a problem with what the nursing home did. The question is whether or not you can do anything about it. Was the nursing home owed any money?

 

[I'mTheFather]

I would start here:

http://www.ltcombudsman.ny.gov/

This organization may be able to determine the legality of encouraging a man with dementia to sign funds over to them.

I also find their actions very disturbing.


ETA: Continue to check this thread. The attorney that Blue Meanie mentioned hasn't posted.

 

[justalayman]

They did know, as I mentioned I faxed them the POA in January. I'm very close with my Dad. How many times a week does he call me? Zero!!! He can't remember my phone number though he used to know it and it is posted next to his bed.

Given that, you think he knew the IRA account number (took me one month to find it) called them right up, filled out the forms, and wired it over) he doesnt have a regular checking/savings account, nor a reason to need 28k. He then "willing" signed it over to the Nursing home? Why would he do this? It makes no sense for HIM to do it.

But if your 100% confident that no wrong doing was going on I will drop it. I did want to use that money to spend down on bills he doesn't even know about like the 5k the ambulate company wants or they wont take him to his DR. or the Hospital just to name one thing as an example.

but you aren't understanding what a POA is.

it does not mean your father cannot act on his own behalf. It is simply a mechanism where you too can act on his behalf. It has nothing to do with incapacity itself.

and it isn't that I don't see what the nursing home did as possibly wrong but to start with, you need to understand what the POA means. So far it doesn't sound like you do. You having a POA would not prevent your father from tending to his own bank accounts. If the bank was not aware of his actual incapacity, like in they were specifically informed, with medical support statements and all, they are under no obligation to prevent your father from accessing his own accounts.


it sounds like you believe a POA has the same powers as a guardianship or conservatorship has. It doesn't. It allows you to act for your father but it does not mean your father cannot also act on his own behalf. It would require the courts appointing a guardian or conservator for that to happen. While he may be mentally incapacitated and that may allow for you to take some action here, it isn't simply because you have a POA.

 

[voyd]

You are right. I was hoping to protect himself from himself and I have failed in doing so. It just seems ethically wrong for a nursing home not to fully explain to him what they asked of him. I had an agreement with them to pay the bill once medicaid made there final decision. I never said I would not honor there bill so I don't know why they felt that had to do this. "Act in his best interest" always stood in my head and that's why I tried to do. I guess I will have to accept the fact that this was his money and he wanted to give it all to the nursing home. I haven't even seen the full bill but i'm sure my dad has and can explain it to me.

Thanks everyone for your help! And GodBless

 

[justalayman]

Now, understand, I'm not saying you don't have some action available to either reclaim the funds or even seek some sort of punitive action against the nursing home. There isn't enough information to make that call or if it would really make any difference in the end. All I was attempting to do was educate you a bit on what a POA does not do.

Now with that said;

what the nursing home did may be a problem. They may have been totally out of line here. If your dad is actually been determined to be mentally incompetent and they are aware of that, unless a doctor examined him and made a re-determination and said he is now again competent, what the nursing home did may be wrong not only in a civil manner but depending on the situation, it could even be criminal. Don't give up on this yet. If he was not competent, then he could not legally give them his money.


and quit beating yourself up. You appear to be doing a lot more than many children would for their parents. You are trying and that is a huge thing, and even in your dad's condition, I suspect somewhere along the line even he appreciates.

 

[voyd]

Well , thank you for shedding the light as I was tunnel visioned into that one sentence on the POA that I forgot that this is his money. I just was surprised to hear he took it out. I had told him many times that I "got this" and I did, but never got the chance to show him. I did call the Ombudsman Program (TY i'm the father) and spoke to them. They are going to some kind of investigation, but I told them that my Dad is happy there even though there ethics are in question imo, I want him to stay there and be treated like a mensch.
justalayman, I am grateful you took the time to shed the light even though I did not want to hear it. I just cant get over the point that I cant pay the Dr's, Ambulates, who I think will keep him alive but could turn him down now, I don't know why DSS and the home asked me for all his medical bills if they were going to let me pay some of them (probably over 200k in bills from the past year.) Good luck to anyone who has a loved one with this disease, it is very swift and difficult to deal with.