Is the University Obligated to Allow Program Completion

[quincy]

Received an email from the dean a short time ago. His exact words were "Although letters were sent to each student in the program, we were unable to locate your letter in your file. I was not in this position at the time, so I cannot say with certainty what happened at that time." Seems that I am being to held to something they aren't even sure they notified me about.

Lets say somehow I was overlooked or didn't receive the letter, am I obligated to call each semester, check in? I know what I agreed to which was 7 years. Anything beyond that is my fault.

Lets say I did receive the letter but could not adjust to their new time frame? I guess what I am getting at is, the catalog spells out the guidelines and what I view is our contract. I provide money and SVSU provides the education. When they accepted payment and I took the classes, the agreement was that credits are good for 7 years and I must complete the program within that time frame. Regardless of notification, can the agreement be changed? I guess this could be in the catalog but no one from the university will answer that question or tell me where that is even addressed.

To me that is like buying a car with a 5 year loan then bank realizes they don't want to do car loans anymore and 2 years into the loan send a letter saying I have 1 year to complete repayment. Regardless of whether they notify me or not, that's not what we agreed to.

With the master's programs in education that I have checked in Michigan, once you are enrolled in the program, you must be enrolled every academic year unless you are granted a leave of absence. Without a leave of absence, you are, essentially, withdrawing from school and withdrawing from the program. The school is not going to track down people who are not enrolled in the university to notify them of changes.

When you quit the program as you did, you must then reapply not only to the university but also be readmitted to the program. The university is under no obligation to readmit you to a program you quit.

If you reapplied and were readmitted, the program you were readmitted to is a different program than the one you originally enrolled in six years ago. Whatever agreement you made with the university six years ago no longer applies.

 

[xylene]

I'm unsure why you think being unenrolled for 4 years would not result in additional costs.

You were not following a degree plan.

The absolute best you can hope for is some mitigation of those cost because of your specific circumstances and the notification issue. This is what you should work out with the ombudsman's office.

Be prepared to eat the full 3k.

 

[JenniSam]

Just because you view the catalog as a contract does not mean it legally is one.

I see your point but then what is the point of any of the "guidelines, policies and procedures"? Based on the catalog, I agreed to pay for, pass classes and complete my program within 7 years. In turn the university agreed to provide the education. They have the right to terminate the program but current students should be allowed to finish the program in the 7 years that I was originally told I had.

I am not looking for anyone to simply agree with me and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am just not seeing how I am not entitled to the full 7 years. I entered in the program with that being a part of the expected benefit. So then what would stop them from saying 1/2 way through the program that I would need 50 credits to graduate instead of 36? I thought that is why the guidelines you are bound to are specific to the catalog for the year you enrolled in the program. That catalog spells out what you must do and what the university will do. The catalog may change but you follow a specific catalog. Am I wrong?

 

[JenniSam]

With the master's programs in education that I have checked in Michigan, once you are enrolled in the program, you must be enrolled every academic year unless you are granted a leave of absence. Without a leave of absence, you are, essentially, withdrawing from school and withdrawing from the program. The school is not going to track down people who are not enrolled in the university to notify them of changes.

When you quit the program as you did, you must then reapply not only to the university but also be readmitted to the program. The university is under no obligation to readmit you to a program you quit.

If you reapplied and were readmitted, the program you were readmitted to is a different program than the one you originally enrolled in six years ago. Whatever agreement you made with the university six years ago no longer applies.

Now this makes sense and I can see this being the issue. The school has not explained it this way but I will search the catalogs for something along these lines.

Thank you!

 

[JenniSam]

I'm unsure why you think being unenrolled for 4 years would not result in additional costs.

You were not following a degree plan.

The absolute best you can hope for is some mitigation of those cost because of your specific circumstances and the notification issue. This is what you should work out with the ombudsman's office.

Be prepared to eat the full 3k.

Because I was told I had 7 years to complete, so I would not assume those credits were going anywhere. If it was after 7 years then I'd certainly assume the costs would increase. The notification issue is my main point. The dean finally addressed it but once again has fallen back on the fact he was not there at the time. So now just waiting for ombudsman to follow up with me.

 

[quincy]

I see your point but then what is the point of any of the "guidelines, policies and procedures"? Based on the catalog, I agreed to pay for, pass classes and complete my program within 7 years. In turn the university agreed to provide the education. They have the right to terminate the program but current students should be allowed to finish the program in the 7 years that I was originally told I had.

I am not looking for anyone to simply agree with me and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am just not seeing how I am not entitled to the full 7 years. I entered in the program with that being a part of the expected benefit. So then what would stop them from saying 1/2 way through the program that I would need 50 credits to graduate instead of 36? I thought that is why the guidelines you are bound to are specific to the catalog for the year you enrolled in the program. That catalog spells out what you must do and what the university will do. The catalog may change but you follow a specific catalog. Am I wrong?

You quit school. Once you quit, no agreement you made with the university applies any longer.

I recommend you review the requirements for the program you enrolled in six years ago. I am sure you will find that you did not meet the requirements. The 7 year time you were given within which you had to satisfy the requirements of the program was only ONE of many requirements that you needed to meet.

Another requirement was that you actually had to stay enrolled in the program.

 

[cbg]

A contract requires, among other things, consideration on both sides. Tell me, in what way were you providing consideration when you failed to enroll for four years?

Bottom line, EVEN IF the catalog were a contract, which it is not, you violated it first by failing to enroll for four of the seven years.

 

[xylene]

You've got 18 credits, so in the 3 years before you were taking 6 credits a year. That's 1 3 credit course a semester.

That's not even 1/2 time enrollment, it is like 1/4 time... which doens't conform to any master's degree program degree plan ever.

 

[JenniSam]

Just had an online chat with the graduate admissions office. Below is a copy of the chat. Other than some formatting to make it somewhat easier to follow on here and removing names, this is the conversation word for word. "You" = me.

I can't get the darn thing to print! It gave the option to email the transcript but it has yet to appear in my inbox.


You � Update your info
How do I obtain a full copy of an archived graduate catalog?

GradAdm SVSU joined the chat

GradAdm SVSU
which program were you interested in?

You � Update your info
I was a part of the M.A.T Secondary teaching program which is no longer available. I need to review that catalog. not just the program specifically. I need the full catalog.


GradAdm SVSU
Just one second please

My I have your first and last name please?

*May
I need to look up which catalog you were admitted under


You � Update your info
J******************

GradAdm SVSU
Okay just one second please


You � Update your info
I t should be the 2008-2009 catalog


GradAdm SVSU

Okay here is the link to your archived catalog http://catalog.svsu.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=9&poid=894&returnto=126

You � Update your info
Does the catalog address enrollment and a requirement to enroll each semester?


GradAdm SVSU

I'm sorry, I am not understanding your question. Our records indicates that you are currently enrolled for the Fall 2015 semester.


You � Update your info
Are you required to take classes every semester from the date of your original admission. In my case that was 2008?

GradAdm SVSU

No, you are not required to take classes every semester. You can skip a semester and we will still have your records. If you wait 7 semesters before taking classes again, we will need you to complete a new application to get readmitted

You � Update your info
where do I find that in the catalog for 2008-2009?


GradAdm SVSU

It is not listed in the catalog, but it is our policy as the admissions office


You � Update your info
So how does one know this policy?

GradAdm SVSU


Okay, my name is *************, I am a work study student for graduate admissions. If you would like to leave me your name and phone number, I can have my boss who is the assistant director of graduate admissions call and explain this policy to you

You � Update your info
I understand the policy as you have explained it. I am just asking how a student would know this if it is not in the catalog or if a student doesn't ask?



GradAdm SVSU


The program is treated just as any other program. You do not have to continue taking classes each semester, you can take some semesters off and continue later, whatever is convenient for you. Usually students does not ask this because most of them are already aware, but unfortunately we do not have anything written on our website that explains this, so the student will either have to ask us as the admissions committee or their advisor for the program.

You � Update your info
Thank you, that would explain why I didn't know.


GradAdm SVSU


You're welcome. Sorry for the misunderstanding


****I dug up my signed and dated program guide from my advisor in 2008 and it does not address an enrollment requirement. However, the first bullet point does state:

"All credits and requirements toward a master's degree, including transfer credits, must be completed within seven years prior to the date on which the degree is to be conferred. **** University credits remain valid for a maximum of seven years."

That is the only time attendance, enrollment or credits are addressed.

 

[JenniSam]

You've got 18 credits, so in the 3 years before you were taking 6 credits a year. That's 1 3 credit course a semester.

That's not even 1/2 time enrollment, it is like 1/4 time... which doens't conform to any master's degree program degree plan ever.

If you are given 7 years to complete a 36 credit program, the math would imply that you could attend less than half time for 6 of the 7 years and still complete the program on time. Per the graduate admissions office, it doesn't seem like this school has a written policy, then or now.

 

[not2cleverRed]

Just curious...

If you had to take an exam tomorrow based on the content that was covered in these courses, would you pass?

What? It's been a while? Um... that's my point.

Part of your "education" in earning an education degree should be mastery of obvious common sense: *legally* this is not a case worth pursuing. It will take time, and it's doubtful you'll win. You will NOT get to complete the defunct program. Period. You will NOT get a full reimbursement of tuition. You WILL have impressed a lot of faculty members and staff as being difficult to work with and worth avoiding, which WILL make it unpleasant to complete any other program at this institution.

Suck it up, move on, and enroll in some similar degree program.

 

[not2cleverRed]

If you are given 7 years to complete a 36 credit program, the math would imply that you could attend less than half time for 6 of the 7 years and still complete the program on time. Per the graduate admissions office, it doesn't seem like this school has a written policy, then or now.

Based on what a work study student said - in the admissions office, no less. Admissions handles "admissions", as in, accepting new students.

I'm VERY sure it has a written policy. I'm very sure that individual departments have their own department policies, which they inform you of, along with the disclaimer "subject to change". It is assumed that *graduate* students are mature adults, and act accordingly - letting their department know that they will be taking a leave of absence from a program, for example. When *I* was applying to graduate school the best advice I heard was to "treat it like a job" - meaning, be professional, be visible to your professors, look interested, etc.

I have NEVER heard of a graduate program that had you sign a contract saying that you would be guaranteed a degree if you hung around enough, or that you were entitled to monetary recourse if the program changed or was eliminated.

 

[JenniSam]

Just curious...

If you had to take an exam tomorrow based on the content that was covered in these courses, would you pass?

What? It's been a while? Um... that's my point.

Part of your "education" in earning an education degree should be mastery of obvious common sense: *legally* this is not a case worth pursuing. It will take time, and it's doubtful you'll win. You will NOT get to complete the defunct program. Period. You will NOT get a full reimbursement of tuition. You WILL have impressed a lot of faculty members and staff as being difficult to work with and worth avoiding, which WILL make it unpleasant to complete any other program at this institution.

Suck it up, move on, and enroll in some similar degree program.

Could I pass a test today - absolutely!

I am fine completing the new program, taking the classes and EARNING a degree.

I am not asking for full reimbursement... I am asking for the payment of the 2 classes which should still be valid to apply to the 2 classes in the new program that replaced them.

My focus is not to make friends. If a teacher gives me a bad grade because they are upset then that just speaks to the already questionable ethics at this school.

 

[quincy]

Could I pass a test today - absolutely!

I am fine completing the new program, taking the classes and EARNING a degree.

I am not asking for full reimbursement... I am asking for the payment of the 2 classes which should still be valid to apply to the 2 classes in the new program that replaced them.

My focus is not to make friends. If a teacher gives me a bad grade because they are upset then that just speaks to the already questionable ethics at this school.

Essentially what you are doing is transferring from one program into another and two of the classes you previously took are not transferrable.

The inability to transfer all credits happens frequently when students change schools (especially from a 2-year to a 4-year college). The new school may not recognize all of the credit classes that were offered in the old school because they have nothing comparable.

If you had not taken an unofficial leave of absence from the school to deal with your health problems, you might have some recourse. I am not seeing you have it available from what you have described, and I do not see that the school has any obligation to return payment for classes you took that are not transferable into the new program.

I suppose the school could issue a refund, though. Stranger things have happened.

 

[ecmst12]

I don't think what you're asking for is unreasonable per se, but you have no power of law behind you to FORCE the university to grant your request. They MAY choose to accomodate your request, out of good customer service, or they may not. Your best bet is to sweet talk the dean and appeal to his sense of fairness, and hope for the best.