Copyright question....

[Zigner]

I own an Etsy shop that specializes in Horse/farming/ranching children's items. I had wanted to start selling felt horse binky clips and found the shop where I would purchase the felt horses for my binky clips. (site removed) .I got permission from the shop owner to use the felt horses on my design and re-sell my items in my shop. Afterwards, I saw another shop that sold binky clips using these exact felt horses(the ones I had wanted to get and gotten permission to use) and claiming the copyright on them. (site removed) . In the listing she states, 'Copyright is owned by (redacted) LLC 2010-Current.' I contacted her about what her copyright covered and how I could sell these in my shop without violating her copyright....She told me my question would be more suited for a Intellectual Property Attorney. Could you tell me what her copyright covers? Could I still create these and sell them in my shop using different ribbon dimensions and colors? Would it be violating her copyright?

I've reported your post due to the links, but left the pertinent info above.

 

[lenoreroundy]

Sorry, I didn't realize posting links was not allowed

 

[quincy]

The author (creator) of an original and creative work holds all copyrights in the works created (with a few exceptions). These rights include the exclusive right to reproduce (copy) the original work, the exclusive right to display or perform the work, the exclusive right to distribute the work, and the exclusive right to prepare adaptations or derivatives of the work.

For you to use the felt horses for your binky clips, you would need to obtain the permission of the copyright holder. Otherwise you are infringing on the copyright holder's rights. Your copied items can be removed from where they are being sold online and you can potentially be sued for copyright infringement. If the copyright is registered with the US Copyright Office, the copyright holder is eligible to collect statutory damages from between $750 to $30,000 per infringed item.

Adding ribbons or changing colors would probably not be enough of a change in the copyrighted work to allow for your sale of the items. Those changes would be considered derivatives of the original.

 

[FlyingRon]

It sounds like she has permission to use the items from the copyright holder. She is concerned that another person who has used the same material is asserting their own copyright. The answer is she is free to do that to the extent that she has additional creative input, but the underlying art that the original poster and this person have in common still remains with the original creator and her rights are not affected.

 

[quincy]

It sounds like she has permission to use the items from the copyright holder. She is concerned that another person who has used the same material is asserting their own copyright. The answer is she is free to do that to the extent that she has additional creative input, but the underlying art that the original poster and this person have in common still remains with the original creator and her rights are not affected.

My understanding is that lenoreroundy got permission from a shop owner (where she purchased the felt horses) to use the felt horses on her binky clips, and not from the copyright holder (who holds the rights in the felt horses).

If my reading is correct, then lenoreroundy cannot use the felt horses to create a new product, without permission from the felt horse creator.

But I could be reading the original post wrong.


edit to add: I just noticed that we do not know the state name, or country name, of lenoreroundy either. Answers could change if she is outside the US.

 

[lenoreroundy]

Yes. I have been given permission to use the felt horses to create products &/or sell them... I live in Monteview, Idaho...
Another shop owner purchases the same felt horses and uses them on her binky holders. She is not the designer of the felt horses, but she claims a copyright to her product.....

 

[quincy]

Yes. I have been given permission to use the felt horses to create products &/or sell them... I live in Monteview, Idaho...
Another shop owner purchases the same felt horses and uses them on her binky holders. She is not the designer of the felt horses, but she claims a copyright to her product.....

You have been given permission from whom? The copyright holder (the one who has a copyright on the horses) or the shop owner who sells the horses made by the copyright holder? I am still not clear on that.

Is this permission in writing, or did the store owner simply say you could buy them and resell them as binky clips?

The other shop owner is claiming the right to the horses as they are used on the binky clips? Did she make the binky clips or did she just buy clips and the horses like you have and attach one product to another to create her felt horse clips?

I guess maybe the links to what you are talking about would have been helpful here.

If the other seller did not make the binky clips, and did not make the felt horses, and both you and the other seller have been given permission to make binky clips with felt horses, neither of you have copyrights in the resulting binky clips. The felt horse creator and the binky clip creator are the ones with the IP rights. If the other seller created the felt horse binky clips first, and registered these with the Copyright Office, it would be true that she is the owner of the rights and can prevent your sales.

 

[lenoreroundy]

Yes, I have been given permission from the one who manufactures the felt horse embellishments. The permission is in an email format. I asked her if I could use them for binky clips, and she said that I could do whatever I wanted with them once I purchased them.

I'm not sure what exactly the lady who sells the completed binky clips is claiming copyrights for. I politely asked her but She wouldn't tell me....Is that normal? She just said my question would be better suited if I asked a lawyer about it... I thought it was kind of odd that she wouldn't know.... I also asked her in what way I could make these without violating her copyright? She didn't address me question....She buys the binky clips, buys the ribbon, and buys the embellishments. She assembles them together and sells them in her shop.

She sells many different themed binky clips with felt embellishments & parts she purchases from other shops & stores and assembles.On all of her listings, she is claiming a copyright. I might also add that the colors will vary, snap material may vary, the ribbon may vary, and the exact length of the binky clip will vary... So as it is not even an exact copy, I don't understand how there could be a problem.....

 

[quincy]

Yes, I have been given permission from the one who manufactures the felt horse embellishments. The permission is in an email format. I asked her if I could use them for binky clips, and she said that I could do whatever I wanted with them once I purchased them.

I'm not sure what exactly the lady who sells the completed binky clips is claiming copyrights for. I politely asked her but She wouldn't tell me....Is that normal? She just said my question would be better suited if I asked a lawyer about it... I thought it was kind of odd that she wouldn't know.... I also asked her in what way I could make these without violating her copyright? She didn't address me question....She buys the binky clips, buys the ribbon, and buys the embellishments. She assembles them together and sells them in her shop.

She sells many different themed binky clips with felt embellishments & parts she purchases from other shops & stores and assembles.On all of her listings, she is claiming a copyright. I might also add that the colors will vary, snap material may vary, the ribbon may vary, and the exact length of the binky clip will vary... So as it is not even an exact copy, I don't understand how there could be a problem.....

Hmmm. I do not see what the lady who sells the completed binky clips is claiming copyrights for, either. Are you sure she is actually claiming rights to the felt horses, or is the copyright notice on her site simply giving credit to the creator of the felt horses? It is possible that the copyright holder gave both you AND her (and maybe others) the right to make things using her horses.

A copyright holder can retain all rights to the work created and still license (or give away) nonexclusive rights to others.

 

[lenoreroundy]

In the listing, All she says is Copyright is owned by (her shop name) 2010-Current....This is an etsy shop....

 

[lenoreroundy]

I wish I knew what she was claiming them for, but she wouldn't say....

 

[lenoreroundy]

Isn't there somewhere someplace to search and see if a copyright is legit? Is it legal for anyone write on their website that their item is copyrighted without getting it legally authorized?
I'm wondering if she knows she doesn't legally have a right to claim the copyright, and so she wouldn't answer... I felt she was trying to keep competition away by saying a lawyer would have to answer the questions about what her copyright covered....(the word lawyer tends to scare people away...lol)

 

[quincy]

If you know the actual copyright holder, I suggest you contact her again to see if she can explain the other shop owner's copyright claims.

Or you can ask the other shop owner for her copyright registration number. She does not necessarily NEED to have her copyright registered - copyrights are automatic upon creation of an original/creation work - but if she does have a registered copyright, that will show exactly what it is she is claiming rights to.

Have your felt horse binkys been removed from your etsy store, through a DMCA takedown, or did you remove the items on your own, after notification from the other shop owner?

Because it is difficult to tell what is going on, you might have to have the items and the facts personally reviewed by an attorney in your area - but from what you have written here, I do not see that the other shop owner has any legal right to prevent you from selling the horse binkys.

The shop owner's website page is copyrightable, as a note. Perhaps that is what is indicated on her site?

One additional note: Anyone can purchase a copyrighted item and resell it, under the First Sale Doctrine. So selling felt horses that you purchased, or clips that you purchase, or pacifiers that you purchase, is not a problem. Anyone who purchases them can resell them (or give them away or throw them away). Where the copyright permission requirement comes into play would be in selling altered or modified versions of the original copyrighted work. That is creating a derivative work, and that is one of the exclusive rights held by the copyright holder.

 

[FlyingRon]

Again, just because someone puts a copyright notice (which is entirely spurious anyhow, it is NOT required anymore to provide copyrihgt notice) doesn't mean they have it. It's not even improper if they have additional creative work over the original creators work that they want to protect. There's no obligation (unless they have an agreement with the original person) to put that person's name in the copyright notice. Unless this additional person has attempted to take action on your use (had your etsy listings removed or whatever), I'm not sure why you are getting upset or what you can do with it.

Unlike trademark search the copyright registration won't yield a whole lot of interesting material when you look them up (even if you have the registration number). The description is going to be very generic and again need not refer to the underlying derived from work.

 

[AdoptADog]

Horsey Faces being sold...copyright

I am not a legal person. But I do a lot of sewing and machine embroidery. I went looking on Etsy and found two sellers of felt horses and one of felt horse binky clips.

I found the original pattern for the horse faces online. The website states that the purchaser of the pattern can sell what they make with the pattern.

I have no interest in the company below, if you choose to search for it. I put it here so the OP can find the pattern herself and see the FAQs on the page that state the horses can be sold.

To find the company, google "Felt embroidery pattern machine" find the website description that says "Our in the hoop felt snap clip covers are so easy to make because their made on your embroidery machine! We have tons of designs to choose from!" (The grammatical error is theirs, not mine.) Then search that site for "horse felt snap" to find the horse yourself.

The seller of the binky clips has no copyright on the horse itself. I cannot speak to what happens after she purchases it, but anyone can purchase the horse pattern, make it, and sell it on Etsy per the pattern seller's site.

I hope this helps.