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Substituted Service Question

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annachry

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York

My initial, most straightforward question, is under NY law, if service is via substituted service, when it says you have to "identify" the person who received service, does a physical description suffice? Or do you need a name?

And now for more details, in case anyone wants to chime in on the more involved saga:

About two weeks ago, I received a call that really upset me- apparently a judgment was entered against me in 2012 (that I'd never heard about or had appeared on my credit report) for 35,000- now 50,000 with fees and penalties. I got very concerned that I didn't have the money. The conversation was civil, but the agent was from a law firm. Judgment. The surprise. I really just got intimidated. The agent asked for my debit card, just to see if he could get even "$500". I gave it to him, told him it wouldn't go through because it wasn't pay day yet. Then he asked about my retirement accounts and told me I should withdraw funds from there. After the penalties, I had about 30k in my retirement account. He told me I could wire him that 30k, plus the 500 that didn't go through, plus make payments of 1k per month for a year and they'd forgive the rest of the debt. I initiated the transfer from my retirement accounts, but when I got off the phone, I started researching, and figured out that this probably wasn't a good move- that those funds were protected, that I was exposing myself to penalty and tax bomb, and really... I'd never heard of this judgment or collector. I cancelled the transfer from my retirement account and started looking into things.

I asked for supporting documentation, and apparently a "co-habitant" was served at my apartment (right address). This person is physically described as being of a different race than me, and not identified by name. Nor is there any signature. I have no co-tenant on my lease or in fact. At the time, I was a foster parent for NYS, so any cohabitant would have been subjected to rigorous screening and notification through ACS. I have the paperwork that says no one was living with me at the time- and that includes random drop-ins by caseworkers to confirm.

I do not recognize the original debt which was incurred in 2001 in Florida- so it may have been outside the statute of limitations, unless there's an argument that someone was making payments on it- but really, it seems completely bogus.

Over the weekend, after I'd pushed back in a couple of emails, asking for proof they had the right to collect the debt on behalf of the original creditors, etc., I noticed they "re-attempted" the $500 charge after my payday happened, which they were not authorized to do. They've admitted the phone calls were taped, and there was a clear understanding that the $500 was going to come from a wire, so I doubt they were legally entitled to remove it from my bank.

Two days ago, they froze the account connected with that bank. I alerted them that the majority of funds in the account were exempt (state payments for foster care/adoption stipends) and offered to provide documentation, and they've refused to lift the levy. This is incredibly inconvenient as I'm leaving the country for two weeks, and it looks like there might be a very small window to challenge the freeze. Is there the same small window to move to vacate the judgment? What about getting the $500 back?

I'm not a lawyer and my head is spinning. What would you do? And is this an area where I shoot myself in the foot to represent myself? If not, what do you think is a reasonable rate for representation? I was quoted $2500, by a "friend" for a "deal" and that just seems excessive to me. Frankly, as a single mom, I really can't afford it right now without a lot of pain/credit usage. Obviously $2500 is way better than $50000 and if I have to get a lawyer I will. But it seems like if it's an easy issue, like vacating for deficient service, maybe I could handle that myself. Not a lawyer, but good attention to detail, meticulous, and a great record-keeper.
 
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adjusterjack

Senior Member
It's way too late to fix this and representing yourself is foolish.

I suggest you consult a bankruptcy attorney ASAP.

You might not like the idea but if the debt is legit, you might not have a choice.
 

annachry

Junior Member
It's way too late to fix this and representing yourself is foolish.

I suggest you consult a bankruptcy attorney ASAP.

You might not like the idea but if the debt is legit, you might not have a choice.
I mean, thanks, I guess. But I'm more interested in the legal requirements of effective service at this point. Also, you don't really make a lot of sense "It's way too late to fix this" but then "hire a lawyer!"

From what I've read, defective service is one of the limited exceptions to vacate a judgment well after the fact. And in this case, the fact that it never showed up on my credit report, that I never made payments or was contacted in any way about it, combined with a (hopefully straightforward) case of defective service... well, I hope it's enough. But if it's too late to fix, I guess it's too late to fix... but that'd apply with or without a lawyer, right?

I have no desire to file for bankruptcy and doubt I could qualify.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
Your're over your head. If they delivered the summons "to a person of suitable age and discretion at theusual place of abode of the person to be served" this is not SUBSTITUTED service. It's actual personal service.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Your're over your head. If they delivered the summons "to a person of suitable age and discretion at theusual place of abode of the person to be served" this is not SUBSTITUTED service. It's actual personal service.
And, to be clear (for the OP), that person doesn't have to reside there...just be there. Also, no signature is necessary from the person being served.
 

latigo

Senior Member
I mean, thanks, I guess. But I'm more interested in the legal requirements of effective service at this point. Also, you don't really make a lot of sense "It's way too late to fix this" but then "hire a lawyer!"

From what I've read, defective service is one of the limited exceptions to vacate a judgment well after the fact. And in this case, the fact that it never showed up on my credit report, that I never made payments or was contacted in any way about it, combined with a (hopefully straightforward) case of defective service... well, I hope it's enough. But if it's too late to fix, I guess it's too late to fix... but that'd apply with or without a lawyer, right?

I have no desire to file for bankruptcy and doubt I could qualify.
"Defective service" is a poor choice of terminology in that it is self-contradictory. Implying that the subject was served with process, but not according to rule.

Service of process is either completed according to local rule - personal or substituted (sometimes known as constructive service) - or it isn't. Ain't no in betweens.

What you need to do is to stop spinning your wheels in here and examine the court file as to what it contains regarding a Return or Affidavit of Service. Which may not appear should the court have granted the judgment exercising personal jurisdiction over your person by reason the state's Long Arm Statute.

In which event the file might reflect that your whereabouts was unknown authorizing service of process by publication and an affidavit of proof of publication.

But you're not going to gain anything arguing and whimpering in cyberspace!
 

annachry

Junior Member
I posted a lengthy response to this a few hours ago, and it hasn't gone through yet. Apparently for moderator review? I'm wondering why. I've been respectful in each previous post.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I posted a lengthy response to this a few hours ago, and it hasn't gone through yet. Apparently for moderator review? I'm wondering why. I've been respectful in each previous post.
Could you have pushed on the "submit" button a few times? This can flag a post as spam.

If your post was flagged for moderator review, it can sometimes take awhile for the post to be reviewed. You might want to try posting again, maybe breaking your "lengthy response" into several smaller posts.
 

annachry

Junior Member
I don't think it was that. I tried to submit a similar post again and same thing. Are there types of posts that aren't allowed? This one included links to the statute and a discussion of substituted service. It wasn't that long- much shorter than my original post, and it was still stopped, this was over an hour ago. Could I inadvertently be being stopped by some profanity filter or something? I didn't use any, but sometimes those are weird and censor words that aren't wrong. Anyway, if it does eventually get posted, please excuse the possible repeat posts.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I don't think it was that. I tried to submit a similar post again and same thing. Are there types of posts that aren't allowed? This one included links to the statute and a discussion of substituted service. It wasn't that long- much shorter than my original post, and it was still stopped, this was over an hour ago. Could I inadvertently be being stopped by some profanity filter or something? I didn't use any, but sometimes those are weird and censor words that aren't wrong. Anyway, if it does eventually get posted, please excuse the possible repeat posts.
If you included links in your post, that often causes a new poster's posts to be flagged. Profanity could cause a post to be flagged.

Your current posts are coming through without an issue, however, so I suggest you write what you want to write absent any links and see what happens. If the problem continues, I will contact the moderator to see what's up.
 

annachry

Junior Member
It's not a big deal; I was just noting, with supporting links, that a lot of information in this thread seemed to be incorrect, partially incorrect or non-responsive. Honestly, it makes me even more reticent to hire an attorney.

Contrary to what someone posted above, substituted service is what service on a person of suitable age and discretion is called in New York. If you google it, you see plenty of official links. You can also find CPLR 308, which describes the process, and requires that the individual served be "identified." Thus my question on whether a physical description suffices, or a name is required. My gut would say there are probably times when a name isn't required, like if someone refuses to give it. But there's no indication of that on the affidavit of service. And isn't the whole point to have enough info there for the person named in the suit and the court to infer who was served. There's not that here.

Maybe I am in over-my-head, but all anyone's done is accuse me of whining, and tell me I'm out of my depth while citing information I know isn't true. Frankly, I don't see why this isn't a strong case.

1. NY requires that the person accepting substitute service be identified. In this case, she was identified as a co-occupant and by a physical description that stated she was black, between 5'2 and 5'8, between 120 and 170 lbs, and 30-40 years old. I am white. I have ample evidence showing there was no co-occupant (lease, homestudy, several corroborating vists from NYC governmental agency), that I don't have any relatives who were black, and unlike intimated above, not just anyone can accept service for you- they have to be more than just "there." It has to be someone, who, based on the relationship is likely to pass on the information. Well, I can prove it wasn't me. I can prove no co-occupant, no relative, and after that, there just isn't the info to even know who the person is to assess the relationship.

2. I didn't hear about the judgment until five years after it was entered against me. It appeared on my credit report two weeks ago, and the attorneys who now represent the client acknowledged that the prior attorneys were fired for "doing nothing" to collect the debt for years. So I have a year (from a couple weeks ago) to ask for the judgment to be vacated.

3. I was just looking into things, and the process server that ostensibly tried to serve me has signed two consent decrees in the last five years (one a few months before he stated he served me, and one in 2016) due to complaints against him with the Consumer Protection Agency. I don't know the details of those complaints, and maybe these disciplinary actions are common, but it can't hurt my case. Also? I can get documentation from my job that my working hours are 10am to 6pm, and it's blocks from my home. He says he served my co-occupant at 7:32 in the morning. Obviously, I don't remember with specificity five years back, but the likelihood that I wouldn't have been at my home and someone else would have been are very small.

4. I believe I have a meritorious defense to the underlying claim. This is outstanding though. I honestly don't believe it's mine- sounds completely unfamiliar. I've requested underlying documentation for the debt and have yet to receive it. You don't borrow 30k and forget though.

I get that vacating the award may be hard to pull off, and I'm not insensitive to the fact that I may be missing a lot. I mean of course- my knowledge begins and ends with Google, and I'd have to be pretty arrogant to assume that's it. But NYC does have forms for people to do this on their own, and I can't believe they'd encourage self-representation if it's doomed to failure. In any case, I'm not sure what I'm missing based on the responses on this thread. I definitely don't think I'm whining or arguing. Just asking a question about interpretation of SS 308(2), primarily, and then any informed feedback on the rest of the story anyone feels like contributing.
 
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CTU

Meddlesome Priestess
It's not a big deal; I was just noting, with supporting links, that a lot of information in this thread seemed to be incorrect, partially incorrect or non-responsive. Honestly, it makes me even more reticent to hire an attorney.

Contrary to what someone posted above, substituted service is what service on a person of suitable age and discretion is called in New York. If you google it, you see plenty of official links. You can also find CPLR 308, which describes the process, and requires that the individual served be "identified." Thus my question on whether a physical description suffices, or a name is required. My gut would say there are probably times when a name isn't required, like if someone refuses to give it. But there's no indication of that on the affidavit of service. And isn't the whole point to have enough info there for the person named in the suit and the court to infer who was served. There's not that here.

Maybe I am in over-my-head, but all anyone's done is accuse me of whining, and tell me I'm out of my depth while citing information I know isn't true. Frankly, I don't see why this isn't a strong case.

1. NY requires that the person accepting substitute service be identified. In this case, she was identified as a co-occupant and by a physical description that stated she was black, between 5'2 and 5'8, between 120 and 170 lbs, and 30-40 years old. I am white. I have ample evidence showing there was no co-occupant (lease, homestudy, several corroborating vists from NYC governmental agency), that I don't have any relatives who were black, and unlike intimated above, not just anyone can accept service for you- they have to be more than just "there." It has to be someone, who, based on the relationship is likely to pass on the information. Well, I can prove it wasn't me. I can prove no co-occupant, no relative, and after that, there just isn't the info to even know who the person is to assess the relationship.

2. I didn't hear about the judgment until five years after it was entered against me. It appeared on my credit report two weeks ago, and the attorneys who now represent the client acknowledged that the prior attorneys were fired for "doing nothing" to collect the debt for years. So I have a year (from a couple weeks ago) to ask for the judgment to be vacated.

3. I was just looking into things, and the process server that ostensibly tried to serve me has signed two consent decrees in the last five years (one a few months before he stated he served me, and one in 2016) due to complaints against him with the Consumer Protection Agency. I don't know the details of those complaints, and maybe these disciplinary actions are common, but it can't hurt my case. Also? I can get documentation from my job that my working hours are 10am to 6pm, and it's blocks from my home. He says he served my co-occupant at 7:32 in the morning. Obviously, I don't remember with specificity five years back, but the likelihood that I wouldn't have been at my home and someone else would have been are very small.

4. I believe I have a meritorious defense to the underlying claim. This is outstanding though. I honestly don't believe it's mine- sounds completely unfamiliar. I've requested underlying documentation for the debt and have yet to receive it. You don't borrow 30k and forget though.

I get that vacating the award may be hard to pull off, and I'm not insensitive to the fact that I may be missing a lot. I mean of course- my knowledge begins and ends with Google, and I'd have to be pretty arrogant to assume that's it. But NYC does have forms for people to do this on their own, and I can't believe they'd encourage self-representation if it's doomed to failure. In any case, I'm not sure what I'm missing based on the responses on this thread. I definitely don't think I'm whining or arguing. Just asking a question about interpretation of SS 308(2), primarily, and then any informed feedback on the rest of the story anyone feels like contributing.

The bigger problem is that you've apparently failed to understand what you've been told by just about everyone else on this thread.

I strongly suggest you obtain counsel before you muck things up completely.
 

annachry

Junior Member
The bigger problem is that you've apparently failed to understand what you've been told by just about everyone else on this thread.

I strongly suggest you obtain counsel before you muck things up completely.
Please tell me what I didn't understand. I was told substituted service isn't a thing, that it's called personal service. And at least in New York, that's not true. I was told that someone merely has to be present at your home to accept service on your behalf, when that's not true either (first link on substituted service New York in Google). I was advised to stop whining and get a copy of the affidavit of service and court documents, when my initial post makes clear I already had that affidavit. (I am in possession of other documents, as well, including the proposal of default judgment, which was accepted by the clerk.)

Multiple posters have told me I don't know what I'm doing and have it all wrong. And fine. Please. I'd love to know that. That's why I'm here. But instead of just being flippant and unhelpful, maybe point me to something that shows I'm wrong? In any case? Not one answer to the question I asked? Aren't lawyers supposed to be about evidence and walking you through and proving a case? Nothing here but empty suggestions that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'll mess everything up, accompanied by inaccuracies.

I thought this was a forum for legal advice. And it seems like the only advice anyone's willing to offer is "consult a lawyer." It's a pretty poor showing if you all are actually lawyers.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Please tell me what I didn't understand. I was told substituted service isn't a thing, that it's called personal service. And at least in New York, that's not true. I was told that someone merely has to be present at your home to accept service on your behalf, when that's not true either (first link on substituted service New York in Google). I was advised to stop whining and get a copy of the affidavit of service and court documents, when my initial post makes clear I already had that affidavit. (I am in possession of other documents, as well, including the proposal of default judgment, which was accepted by the clerk.)

Multiple posters have told me I don't know what I'm doing and have it all wrong. And fine. Please. I'd love to know that. That's why I'm here. But instead of just being flippant and unhelpful, maybe point me to something that shows I'm wrong? In any case? Not one answer to the question I asked? Aren't lawyers supposed to be about evidence and walking you through and proving a case? Nothing here but empty suggestions that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'll mess everything up, accompanied by inaccuracies.

I thought this was a forum for legal advice. And it seems like the only advice anyone's willing to offer is "consult a lawyer." It's a pretty poor showing if you all are actually lawyers.
Here are links to information on New York's substituted service:

http://nycourts.gov/courthelp/GoingToCourt/serviceSubstituted.shtml

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/civil-practice-law-and-rules/cvp-sect-308.html

I am not seeing where what was earlier provided to you by forum members was wrong.
 

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