Did I quit?

[LTD93]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

I have a couple of questions.

Some background: I’ve worked for a small business for over 20 years. Basically, it’s just been me and the owner, with a rotating cast of admin assts. Over the years. At one point I left for about a year, and he asked me back because he could not find anyone who could do everything I did to his satisfaction. At that time, he offered me a part of the business to be discussed; along with some other perqs to get me to come back. I did come back. I never got anything in writing. I know he is starting to think about retiring, and so for the last year I’ve been trying to get him to commit to anything. Nope – not gonna happen. I’m resigned to the fact that promises are worth the paper they are written on, though I feel really stupid.

My questions have made him uncomfortable, and things have been going even more downhill. I’ve continued to do my job to the best of my ability despite his suddenly making every single job more difficult by being infinitely more demanding. It’s clear that he wants me gone. Things boiled over earlier this week, and I’m so tired of the
environment. I asked for his co-operation in looking for another job by giving me a good reference. He responded by asking me for a hard date when I would be out. I told him that’s not what I had in mind – that I had planned on continuing to work until I found something else. He’s not having it; he is letting me go on a date that he set. I get that he can do that, and again I’m resigned to that.

As with every story, there is a lot more, but I think that’s all the important stuff. My questions are these:

1.) Did I quit? Or is he laying me off? Firing me? When I asked for his reference I didn’t intend it as quitting, but I’m not sure of the EDD perspective. Unemployment will probably be needed for a time, so I’m worried about this.

2.) How does a final wages check work in concert with severance pay? In our discussion about a “hard date” he mentioned that he “might” give me severance pay, but I know from the past that if he does he will want to pay it weekly instead of in a lump sum. Will he still need to payout my unused vacation immediately on my last work day, or can he kick it down to road to the last severance check date?

Thank you for any help you can provide!

 

[FlyingRon]

Your final paycheck (i.e., payment for hours you actually worked up to termination) is due 72 hours after you leave the employ (in some cases less).

Frankly, it sounds like you did quit.

Absent some contract that says he promised to pay severance, he's not obliged to do so at all, let alone on any schedule.

 

[LTD93]

Your final paycheck (i.e., payment for hours you actually worked up to termination) is due 72 hours after you leave the employ (in some cases less).

Frankly, it sounds like you did quit.

Absent some contract that says he promised to pay severance, he's not obliged to do so at all, let alone on any schedule.

Oh, yes! I know he's not obliged to pay severance, but if he does, then does he still need to pay final wages + earned vacation immediately, or at the end of the severance period? Also, I thought in California final check is due immediately in most cases?

 

[Zigner]

Your final paycheck (i.e., payment for hours you actually worked up to termination) is due 72 hours after you leave the employ (in some cases less).

Not in California, not when the employee is "let go". In this case, the employee simply stated he's looking for other employment, thus causing his employer to give him a final date. In that case, the pay is due on the last day the employee works.

Frankly, it sounds like you did quit.

Nope. The employee said he's looking for different work, so the employer is terminating him. That's not a "quit". Especially not in California.

Absent some contract that says he promised to pay severance, he's not obliged to do so at all, let alone on any schedule.

Agree 100%


You may wish to review #9 on these FAQ's: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Paydays.htm
Final wages are due on the same day that the employee is terminated.

 

[Zigner]

Oh, yes! I know he's not obliged to pay severance, but if he does, then does he still need to pay final wages + earned vacation immediately, or at the end of the severance period? Also, I thought in California final check is due immediately in most cases?

If you're terminated, yes. If you quit, no.

Review the link I gave.

 

[LTD93]

If you're terminated, yes. If you quit, no.

Review the link I gave.

Thank you, that's what I was thinking but I wanted to be clearer on the issue before the day comes. I want to get away from there as cleaniy as I can and never have to look back.

Thanks again!

 

[cbg]

As to quit or terminated, I could make a good argument either way. But a lesson to be learned; never give your boss any indication that you're looking to leave until you're prepared to give your last day. And be prepared to take your things with you.

 

[LTD93]

As to quit or terminated, I could make a good argument either way. But a lesson to be learned; never give your boss any indication that you're looking to leave until you're prepared to give your last day. And be prepared to take your things with you.

Yeah, I was less than brilliant to do that. But in my defense, I've worked with this guy for 20 years. I thought we were friends - he's seen my children grow up, attended their graduations, my daughter's wedding. I ran the place for a year when he was in an accident and needed rehabilitation; helped him through his divorce, attended his wedding when he remarried. I thought his problems with me were about the unkept promises and/or money. I never thought he would use a discussion about me moving on to just get rid of me.

I've never signalled a move to an employer before this, and you can bet I'll never do it again!

Thanks, cbg.

 

[Chyvan]

http://www.edd.ca.gov/UIBDG/Voluntary_Quit_VQ_135.htm#LeavingPriortoEffectiveTime Read section 2.

While it could look like you quit, your employer is on his way to turning your quit into a discharge. Just keep in mind how things need to unfold. You need to be released prior to when you wanted to be, and suffer a wage loss. Be really careful with any severance. You really don't want the guy to be able to lie and say that you quit, gave a date, and all the money he paid you was to pay you through your notice period.

 

[FlyingRon]

Not in California, not when the employee is "let go". In this case, the employee simply stated he's looking for other employment, thus causing his employer to give him a final date. In that case, the pay is due on the last day the employee works.

I was talking about after he stops working (which I assumed had passed). Depending on the amount of notice the final check can be due immediately or at the most 72 hours after the last day. YES, IN CALIFORNIA. Exactly what I said.

Nope. The employee said he's looking for different work, so the employer is terminating him. That's not a "quit". Especially not in California.

Nope, that's not what he said. He said he wanted the employer to help him get a job elsewhere. I'll defer to you if you think that isn't indication that he is leaving especially after giving an answer to "what's your last day?" from the employer.

You may wish to review #9 on these FAQ's: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Paydays.htm
Final wages are due on the same day that the employee is terminated.

You may wish to review the actual text above the numbered questions and find that what I said was 100% true. 72 hours is the worst case, in many cases less (as I said).

 

[justalayman]

You did not quit. I can't see any argument that you had. In fact you made it clear you were not leaving his employment until some future and ambiguously stated event took place. For all he knew you realized he was going to retire and you were planning for the day he closed shop.

Quitting your job is like shopping for a car; you haven't bought it until the contract is signed no matter how confident you sound that you are going to buy a car. Leaving employment is
The same; until you either don't show up anymore or
Say "I quit" you haven't quit. He terminated your employment.


Heck, there is at least one state that allows you to draw unemployment for the period created by giving some future date notice and the employer terminating you immediately since that not considered to be unemployed by your choice.

 

[cbg]

Oh, I don't think there's any question that the OP will be able to draw unemployment under these specific circumstances.

But if the OP had never indicated to the boss that they were looking for a new job and requested a reference, none of this would have happened. Generally one does not ask about references unless departure is imminent. When the boss looked to finalize the question, the OP backpedaled.

That's the other side of the coin you offered.

 

[LTD93]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies. I see how an argument can be made either way for quit/discharge, and I knew immediately after the words were out of my mouth that it was a dumb thing to do. There's 20 years of backstory here, and I honestly thought I was having a conversation with a friend about a win-win strategy - from his behavior he wanted me gone and I wanted to leave as soon as I could find another job. But that's water under the bridge and thanks to the links Zigner and Chyvan provided, I see the line I will have to walk between now and my last day. I'll need every ounce of stoicism I can muster.

Thanks again for all the comments.

 

[LTD93]

New question - CalCOBRA

Things are moving along and the boss had a talk with me and said that he would include in my severance a couple month's worth of health insurance premium. That's all good, but isn't he supposed to offer CalCOBRA? I mentioned it and he said he didn't think he had to. It's been a long time since I've separated from a job, so I know I could be wrong about this. I have some ongoing health issues, and so I was counting on it until I find another job. Can someone update me on the rules for health insurance? Thank you in advance.

 

[Zigner]

How many employees are covered by the plan? (The owner doesn't count). Also, you are aware that you would be required to pay the full amount of any premium for health insurance, right?