• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Free labor in University

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

xylene

Senior Member
This sound bizarre academically.

Employee or not, I too think the op is getting the shaft royally, as are those TAs with scholarships and fellowships who are being devalued. This would not fly in many many schools. So I hardly think describing it as typical is true or helpful.

IMHO expereince at several universities, it would be a scandalous for TA work to take place outside of a scholarship and/or fellowship situation, with credit applied (not paid for) and a stippend (though admittedly modest). In my case I was required to fill out voluminous waiver paperwork to even temporarily assist on a course for 1 week, as I was a research fellow, not a teaching fellow. The university was very strict that 'volunteers' not undercut teaching fellows.

I don't really understand this 'suck it up buttercup it is the real world' routine. If you do someone's job for free in the 'real world' - you can expect to get your butt kicked - at least metaphorically. You can expect that to happen any time your actions undercut someone.
 


cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
There is a lot of complicated financing going on behind the scenes. The rules are in some cases different when they are receiving school credit for the work they do. We have paid students, unpaid students, paid post docs, unpaid post docs, post docs on stipend, paid and unpaid fellows, and all manner of combinations depending on the nature of the work, where the money to pay for the work is coming from (I'm not talking only salaries - I'm also talking research grants), who is paying it and long line of other factors. It is not as simple as, "I am teaching a class; therefore I am an employee and am entitled to be paid".
 

Alex2050

Member
It has been my observation that those who have OP's attitude have a more difficult time completing a PhD program.
You are miss-judging, I have a lot of more important things to do including a paid research position.

I am not actually learning to teach here, only doing work that the university normally pays Teacher assistance to do. If I was infact tought how to make a course plan, or how to deal with students that don't put in the effort, and some grading it wouldn't hurt this much. They make us do repeat crappy work that they would normally have to pay a TA to do.
 

Alex2050

Member
This sound bizarre academically.

Employee or not, I too think the op is getting the shaft royally, as are those TAs with scholarships and fellowships who are being devalued. This would not fly in many many schools. So I hardly think describing it as typical is true or helpful.

IMHO expereince at several universities, it would be a scandalous for TA work to take place outside of a scholarship and/or fellowship situation, with credit applied (not paid for) and a stippend (though admittedly modest). In my case I was required to fill out voluminous waiver paperwork to even temporarily assist on a course for 1 week, as I was a research fellow, not a teaching fellow. The university was very strict that 'volunteers' not undercut teaching fellows.

I don't really understand this 'suck it up buttercup it is the real world' routine. If you do someone's job for free in the 'real world' - you can expect to get your butt kicked - at least metaphorically. You can expect that to happen any time your actions undercut someone.
True! I am doing someone else's job for free. But it seems laws that apply to academia are some what gray here.
Thanks for you logical reply!
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
You are miss-judging, I have a lot of more important things to do including a paid research position.

I am not actually learning to teach here, only doing work that the university normally pays Teacher assistance to do. If I was infact tought how to make a course plan, or how to deal with students that don't put in the effort, and some grading it wouldn't hurt this much. They make us do repeat crappy work that they would normally have to pay a TA to do.
I used to tell my engineering calculus students: you can tell me what you need to know after you pass the EIT exam.

Similarly, you can tell me what attitude is helpful in pursuing a doctorate after you get a doctorate.

P.S. There is such a thing as "learning by doing."
 

quincy

Senior Member
True! I am doing someone else's job for free. But it seems laws that apply to academia are some what gray here.
Thanks for you logical reply!
In the link I provided, the DOL lists seven factors that are considered in determining who the primary beneficiary is for the purposes of pay. Read through those. I am not seeing that you qualify as an employee.
 

Alex2050

Member
Let me make a few things clear:

1-I already have a paid RA position. Which takes more than 50hrs/week, I am getting paid only 20hrs for it AND I AM NOT COMPLAINING.

2- I DON'T want the univ. to pay me for this position. I want to "not take this 4 useless credits".

3- I am pissed that the univ is taking advantage of their students. I see it like any other company, I don't think Walmart can force everyone who shops there to buy a milk every time the shop, specially in the case of a univ since there isn't really a competition or alternative options, so we have to obey and take this credits.and if the work is not done they will simply fail you.
 

Alex2050

Member
I used to tell my engineering calculus students: you can tell me what you need to know after you pass the EIT exam.

Similarly, you can tell me what attitude is helpful in pursuing a doctorate after you get a doctorate.

P.S. There is such a thing as "learning by doing."
I am not gonna argue with your first point.

But your p.s is obviously wrong on multiple levels.

1- The subject you are learning should be related, with your logic why don't they make every PhD trim the campus trees to learn gardening?

2- A whole semester spent on grading 50+ students' homeworks won't teach me anything. Grading 2 or 3 sets of assignments is enough. There are many other important things to be tought in a "supervised teaching" course.

If everyone has your attitude, nothing will get fixed.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Alex, is the course you are being required to TA for, an engineering course of any kind?
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
Actually, I'm going to disagree just a bit with the other responses that have been given here. Traditionally graduate teaching assistants (which is what this sounds like to me) were not considered employees. Two consequences of that approach were that graduate teaching assistants could not collectively bargain over pay and working conditions (in other words join union, which is the most common way collective bargaining occurs) and they didn't have to be paid (though some colleges and universities do pay them). But interestingly enough, the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) held in 2016 that graduate teaching assistants are employees and thus have the right to collectively bargain. Thus one could argue that if they are employees for the purpose of collective bargaining then they are also employees for the purpose of paying wages, in which case they would have to be paid at least minimum wage for their work. There is at least now one union specifically for graduate teaching assistants. My point is that there may indeed be an argument here that graduate teaching assistants should be paid, not that there is a clearly an obligation to pay them. The matter has not yet been tested in court, but I expect that will be coming. You can look into this issue and contact the union, too, if you are interested in really trying to push for pay for this work.

(There must be something weird in the stars today — this is the second post today I've discussed recent NLRB rulings, the other was on a different forum. Ordinarily the decisions of the NLRB don't come up much in discussion on consumer legal forums.)
That is an Ivy League case. OP is not at an Ivy League institution. Many public institutions of higher learning had unionized long before this. There was at least one Big Ten university that had unionized gradate students almost 20 years before this case.

Furthermore, if I've guessed correctly, OP's institution's graduate students are already represented by a labor union.

Finally, within academia, if one feels that they have a grievance, one does best exploring the proper channels and whether they have a proper grievance. Going off and threatening legal action when there are internal mechanisms is a bad idea.

I am not gonna argue with your first point.

But your p.s is obviously wrong on multiple levels.

1- The subject you are learning should be related, with your logic why don't they make every PhD trim the campus trees to learn gardening?

2- A whole semester spent on grading 50+ students' homeworks won't teach me anything. Grading 2 or 3 sets of assignments is enough. There are many other important things to be tought in a "supervised teaching" course.

If everyone has your attitude, nothing will get fixed.
And you would be incorrect. Although many who pursue PhDs do not go on to pursue academic careers, those that do benefit from having some hands on experience. And many of the skills you learn doing these tasks transfer to other areas. I see nothing wrong with expecting PhD students helping instructors manage, teach, grade, interact with students outside of class and, if appropriate, plan and give a lecture in the course. Learning how to plan and deliver lectures, how to organize course topics, and other tasks related to teaching a course are very important skills.

A former Colleague From Hell (CFH) could have benefitted from doing such tasks in graduate school at the Tier 1 institution where he got his graduate degree. Instead, he got booted from tenure track, and has subsequently been booted from every other institution he dabbled at teaching in. He didn't last in nonacademic employment either. Last I heard he was an adjunct in remote Alaska... Because he *couldn't* effectively write or grade exams, for one thing, and couldn't resolve student complaints about his grading methods.

But those of us from lesser ranked graduate programs had no problem passing our tenure track assessments. We had years of class management experience before stepping into the classroom as a faculty member.

Your institution recently (within the past 5 years) added this requirement, in an effort to better prepare their PhD students for future employment.

But hey, listen solely to the people with no academic experience. And even less to those with academic experience in an engineering college.
 
Last edited:

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top